Willem

did some testing today to check on our dogs food guarding as described in post #8: kibble and kangaroo meat fed in the bowl: no problems at all, I can sit beside her, take kibble or chunks of meet out of the bowl and feed her from the hand - no signs of stress at all. Saying this, it is not really surprising considering that I use this food also as treats in training (sometimes more than 50% of her food ratio are treats) so she gets it anyway out of my hands. bones / briskets: was a different story - see post #8; she normally takes the bone / brisket out of the bowl, carries it to the lawn and enjoys gnawing at it. She still prefers to do this with company - but with a distance of approx. 2 meters between me and her. If I went closer in the past, she took the bone and moved away - same behaviour when the kids are around; if I moved away, she often followed, but kept the distance. Now today I went into the study and she followed me with the brisket, but didn't keep the distance...and even allowed me to pad her while she was still gnawing at the brisket - no signs of stress. Now does this indicates that her instincts regarding food guarding are extinct?...I don't believe this, she just learned to trust me. Other people, kids or other dogs around and the behaviour will likely be totally different. Therefore I stick with the rules that the food is hers once it was handed over and she got the cue. Kids know they have to stay away, and no feeding when other dogs are visiting. I believe what ever procedure is adopted, it should allow the dog to feed without stress. @OP: it seems that hand feeding could be one suitable method to minimize food guarding as the dog learns that 'hand' means food and not competition.

LOL Willem - we've had over an inch of rain every day for the last week. And its bitterly cold and comes from no where - one minute its fine/sunny the next minute its bucketing down. Nothing is drying - everything is slushy -and between you and me and the thread - the coffee isn't that great in this town LOL. ...one of the cheapest ways to make a good coffee or espresso are with these stovetop coffee makers http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-Cup-Espresso-Coffee-Maker-Italian-Style/191345332224?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140117125611%26meid%3D5299b13865c64ba7b2f1a2933e385d10%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D161595682675... ...but even a Nespresso tastes much better (as long as it is hot) after a walk that makes you feel the cold and wet straight through the bones :) ....or a hot chocolate, or a good tea...

...we had a similar problem with our BC - this thread has a lot of good ideas from the members here; now 7 month later she still loves to run and play with other dogs, but does it on my terms respectively when she is allowed to do so. She holds her stand, sit and drop during obedience between all the other dogs pretty good, and I have no problem recalling her when she runs with other dogs - I'm very happy with how she develops :).

...what's bad weather? ...I'm only aware of unsuitable clothing...and regarding the dog: there's not much a garden hose and rag couldn't fix :) ...another positive side effect is that the hot cappuccino after a rainy dog walk tastes much better :D

I noticed that there can be some fat attached to bones (or chicken frames), but a clean bone shouldn't have any fat? Eta:...ah, the marrow...but does it has the same kind of fat?

...there can be good reasons for letting the dog fast sometimes or medical conditions (after diarrhea) when then value of the stimuli 'food' changes for a dog.

of course not!...I guess it was anyway a more rhetorical question...there are always scenarios where desexing might be the best available option - you have 2 males, 2 females so desexing could really help to increase the quality of their life (less need for crating, significant less problems to walk them...). If you read through the whole thread you will recognize that it is about the - IMO - false recommendation that desxing is the sole cure for the pound problems, overpopulation, health and behaviour issues...

...agree 99% with HW (the missing 1% refers to the leading record misattributed to Aristotle :D ) @ kirty: ..you never trust, but fully expect to be safe...?... Eta: wrt ...."My concern would be that desensitisation to a certain set of circumstances isn't the same as extinguishing the instinct altogether..." ...it needs also to be considered that the value of the food will change depending on the hunger of the dog - a dominant dog might easily give up on food and leave it to a lower rank dog when he had enough. Conversely a lower ranked dog might fight fiercely if he is really hungry....these are all parameters that are difficult to address in these swapping games.

...even the dog with the lowest rank might growl to express disagreement when risking loosing a bone or other valuable food to other pack members - it will likely surrender the food to a more dominant pack member, probably without further fighting - but what's the outcome?...the dog will just be stressed and will also be stressed when she is fed the next time. ...swapping games?...might work ...but what is if the kids approach the dog next time when she is chewing a bone and they have nothing to swap? I think it is more important to establish clear rules around the feeding procedure that are valid for all pack members (dog and family members) - HW's approach seems to work well when you have more than 1 dog, for us the approach 'any food is hers once she got the cue to take it' works just fine; I know I could take it away from her to demonstrate that I'm the boss - but what would I gain by doing this?...and would she also accept such a behaviour from the kids?...again I would be able to train her to accept this behaviour from the kids, but there is Murphy's law and there is this one day where shit happens.

If you you were walking towards me and told me that uour bitch was in season you would get a mouthful of not very nice words! Part of the responsibility of keeping you bitch entire is leaving her at home when she is in season. Walking a bitch in season even on a lead in a public place is irresponsible and asking for trouble. ...just to clarify: the trouble is coming from responsible people like you or from other dogs or from what?????...if you can't control your dog because he senses a bitch on heat, rest assured I can... Eta: ...when I walk our dog and she is in season, of course I try to avoid any encounter with other dogs and there is no socializing with other dogs no matter whether male / female, no dog parks, off leash areas, crowded areas etc.. If other dog walkers approach, I change side of the road etc...if they want to come closer, they get the warning - it worked for the last 40 years. If an owner of a male dog can't control his dog despite early warnings and keeping distance, I doubt that he can control his dog in case a cat or other animal is crossing his way triggering the dog's prey drive (which can happen without warning) - any owner should always be able to control his own dog in public - no matter what the distractions might be!...if an owner can't do this, then he should stay at home with his dog!

...maybe one day our kids will ask whether the entire male dog that just walked by is sick because they think the balls are tumors hanging out of the bum...or how many dog owners here still know the first signs when an entire bitch comes into heat?...I walk our dog even when she is on heat, now sometimes we meet other dog walkers and when I mentioned to them - from a distance - that I can't let her off the leash for a play today because she is on heat their facial expression tells me that they think I must be crazy....I never had an incident, problems to keep other dogs away and the like. And no, there are no straying dogs queueing up in front of our house either. Of course this will also depend on where you live - in a neighbourhood with a lot of straying dogs it might happen that you find the ocasssional male sniffing in front of your house. I don't take her to the obedience and agility training, dog parks etc. etc. while she is on heat...no off-leash outside the house or backyard...but that's it. ...and yes, owners who think desexing would stop their male from humping other dogs - keep dreaming :D ....

I'm still contemplating about the reasons behind motivating someone to own over 40 dogs - I assume it is not for breeding as they all should be desexed as rescue dogs?...40 dogs are substantial work and will cost some kg of meat each day. Considering the type of dog I wonder whether some people discovered a new business: gathering rescue dogs suitable for pig hunting for a small rescue fee and sell them (trained?) for a good price to pig hunters? Note: this comment is not meant to criticize this business idea or pig hunters / potential buyers, and I'm not aware of any evidence that this case is linked to such a business and I'm not saying that it is linked to such a business - I just wonder what could be the reason behind collecting so many dogs of this type?

...quoting the whole section gives a more comprehensive picture: Can dogs be safely confined by tethering? Tethering is where an animal is fastened by a chain to a central anchor point, causing it to be confined to a specific area. It is sometimes used as a method of confining dogs in conditions which may otherwise endanger them in some way or permit them to stray. Tethers are also often used as a method of confinement for working dogs on farm. Where dogs regularly need to be confined outdoors, the best way to do this is to provide a secure yard or suitably sized enclosure with access to appropriate shelter, clean water, food and a suitable sleeping area. Where this is not available, or where dogs need to be securely restrained away from their usual home environment, a well-designed and situated tether can provide a secure and humane solution when used for short periods of time. All dogs should be trained to be tethered before being left alone on a tether. To avoid dogs becoming distressed, frustrated or bored, the length of time the dog is tethered should always be minimised. All tethered dogs must be provided with adequate food, water and shelter from the weather (heat, cold, sun, wind, rain etc). Water should be provided in a heavy container which cannot be knocked over. Tethered animals require greater supervision than free-roaming animals because of the risk of injury or entanglement. When dogs are tethered for longer periods (more than a few hours) they must be inspected at least twice a day (three times in very hot weather) and be provided with daily exercise off the tether in a safe environment. Tethering of dogs must comply with any state/territory laws or regulations relating to the tethering of dogs. Tether design Swivel tethers on fixed runners are recommended to reduce the likelihood of entanglement and injuries. A leather collar is best and should be fitted to a swivel which is then attached to a tether of approximately three metres in length. Only metal chain tethers should be used as they provide greater security; rope and other tethers may fray, break or tangle. The chain should be of an appropriate weight and strength for the dog but should not be so heavy as to cause a problem in moving normally. The other end of the tether should be attached via a swivel to a strong wire which should be about 1.5 metres above ground level. The wire should be firmly secured at either end to trees, fences or posts but must have stops at either end to ensure that the running tether cannot become entangled or injure the dog. Tethering site A suitable tethering site should be reasonably flat, dry and have an area of shade and some form of shelter when used in hot, windy or wet weather. Tethering sites should be clear of obstructions that may snag or catch on the tether. Dogs can be easily choked if the tether becomes entangled or be hung if they jump over or off obstacles while tethered. Tethering sites should be situated away from footpaths, roadways where there is fast moving traffic or other hazards such as farm machinery. When tethering is not suitable Tethering should only be a short-term or temporary solution to securing a dog. Because of the restriction it places on the movement of the dog, and the risk of injury or entanglement, it is not suitable as a permanent means of confinement. Dogs must never be tethered in conditions where they are vulnerable to extreme heat, severe cold, driving rain or predators. Young dogs (less than 6 months old), bitches in season and pregnant bitches close to whelping should never be tethered. . Eta:...included all sections under 'Can dogs be safely confined by tethering'.

one end looks pretty much like a piglet nose to me...

when I follow the fakebook link Powerlegs provided it is picture 'Chained Dogs Blind Bight 8 of 14' - the dog has something in his mouth and with some fantasy it looks like a piglet head for me - it is not 100% recognizable so. Eta: ...if the piglet - if it was a piglet - was killed during a hunt and then used as dog food there is nothing wrong with this; doesn't look nice, but why would you waste it?

@DogDragon Thanks - fair comments. The whole thread started because I wondered why desexing is so heavily promoted in Australia - and one reason you hear from the desexing lobby all the time are full pounds and overpopulation. I took the risk and ask the question whether the pounds are really full and whether there is really a problem with overpopulation, and of course got shot down in flames - e.g. see post #95. No comprehensive stats and contradicting information from different sides - a challenging topic, glad we agree regarding the last point, which also implies (correct me if I'm wrong) that desexing is not the silver bullet for the real problem and can't be a replacement for a more transparent registration that would allow to control numbers.

...could be coincidence and the owner just use it as dog food supply sourced somewhere else: one of the dogs shown has a piglet head in his mouth?

...looks for me like a typical collection of dogs used for pig hunting, which is legal in NSW and QLD?...in Victoria you can still use dogs, but sticking is illegal?.....the pigs do a lot of damage to farmers (they can ruin crop worth thousands of $ in one night) so I would assume pig hunters / doggers get also a lot of support? ...if they can't prove that the dogs have been stolen the legal leverage the council has could be limited.

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume its too hard to do that for some. Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact.... @ asal: thanks - if we look at the dog numbers produced by registered breeders (where we know that most of them will be registered) and the dog numbers coming from 'underground' breeders I think it might be justified to contemplate whether it is possible to change the ratio and whether there are options for improvements... @dogdragon: I guess on the one side there are breeders who doing it only for money and on the other side there are the ones who put pride into what they doing....and there are many between... Point? if we know (?) that the pup production of 'underground' breeders are what causes the overpopulation / pound problems it might we worthwhile to assess whether there are options to motivate them to become registered breeders. There might be breeders that would be happy to become an ANKC breeder, but on the other hand they might be put off by all the formal stuff required - some offered support and guidance might be all what is needed. Some might respond to incentives...some might only respond to fines and won't bother at all. From all the information that built up in the meanwhile in this thread in my opinion there won't be any solution without decreasing the numbers of underground breeders and increasing the numbers of registered, law obeying breeders. That (the ratio between underground and legal breeding) seems to be also the biggest difference in comparison with other developed countries.

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume it’s too hard to do that for some. Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact.... @ asal: thanks - if we look at the dog numbers produced by registered breeders (where we know that most of them will be registered) and the dog numbers coming from 'underground' breeders I think it might be justified to contemplate whether it is possible to change the ratio and whether there are options for improvements... @dogdragon: I guess on the one side there are breeders who doing it only for money and on the other side there are the ones who put pride into what they doing....and there are many between...

hm...not sure about the reliability of the records - I just did a search for whole Australia for the last 12 month...there is only one case of distemper recorded (Newman / WA) - how can this be?...conversely to parvo the virus doesn't survive very long outside the body, so they must be more than one case?

...that makes also an interesting comment for the 'unethical desexing' thread... Can you keep your ranting to one thread? There's a reason its an echo chamber in there. ...who is ranting here?...me or you?

...that makes also an interesting comment for the 'unethical desexing' thread...

http://www.diseasewatchdog.org/ that would be pretty handsome if the data is reliable...

All the vets I talked to so far (had another chat on the weekend with a vet) still 'recommend' the 1 year vaccine regime for the core vaccines, despite the amended Australian guidelines. They argued that they have to stick to the product labels issued by the manufacturers that recommend the yearly vaccinations - otherwise they would open themselves up to lawsuits if something goes wrong. Now, that seems to be a valid argument. Still they might be a little bit biased due to the potential income losses a changed vaccination regime would cause them. A single CV3 vaccine dose cost less than AU$ 20 (might be even much cheaper if they can source it straight from US), that leaves AU$ 70 to the vet (I refer to the AU$ 90 I was charged once for a puppy CV3 shot). Regarding the 'AU$-4-Billion-over-10-years' estimation I did in post #1: a modified regime based on titer testing would result in AU$ 2 - 3 billion loss for the vets in Australia over the next 10 years - that's quite substantial and considering all the expenses they have (insurances, equipment, nurses etc.) it could be existence threatening. While the titer testing cost more than a shot, the interaction of the vet is mostly limited to taking a blood sample (AU$ 20?) and send it off to the lab, so it would lead to a dramatic income shift from the vets to the labs. Taking this into consideration it seems to be no surprise that they don't offer titer testing if not asked by the customer.