Willem

It wouldn't be a training fail - if I did what I said I should do... But I forget. I'm way more like a vending machine than I should be. Willem Agility breaks... I have a crate for my dog. She LURVES being in the crate - if she gets frustrated during training there's a risk she will nick off back to the crate cos that feels better than being frustrated. I also practice start line stays or drops with distractions. And that I do get right regards rewarding "average or better" so the stays become exciting training opportunity for dog. But they have to stay on the mat to get the reward (which is release and a game of tug - good, or food (ok) or release and it's our turn on course now - best - from the dog's POV). If the instructor is talking to me during or straight after a run... I always look after my dog first and give her something to do, drop, leg weaves, pats and ear rubs if she needs calming down... It's easy if I have crate set up, I can send her there (from quite far away) and then listen to instructor. Crate also protects her from loose dogs which happen sometimes. If we're moving around with lots of different start places I don't always set the crate up, I will make her drop and stay. A lot of us do that. It's an opportunity to train a reliable stay. But at home you've got to try and break the stay with increasing levels of distractions... fake her out. Something to try on the walk (and I confess I haven't got this yet) is random sits and drops - excellent if you can get it working with big lab distraction. Start close up with lots of rewards. have a list of things you can do while you're waiting your turn that don't need equipment or much space. eg change of position games (sit,drop,stand, spin, twist, drop, stand, sit, pretty....), leg weaves if you don't need to be on lead or if you're on course when you have to stop. You need your dog to be just as excited about "stay" as they are about jumping... .... :D ...Man's Got to Know his Limitations ...

it is actually quite interesting how the different kibbles affect the pooh in color, size&shape and firmness - if I wouldn't know what I feed I could recognize it from the poo. That just tells you that every kibble (or food) gets processed differently from the dog's metabolism thus having a big impact on overall nourishing. Eta:...forget to list 'smell' and 'taste' for the poo parameters - can't comment much on the 'taste', but it seems that some poo eating dogs have their special taste :)

yes !...with the significant higher risks regarding ligament injuries for de-sexed dogs those athletes are best left entire, at least till they are grown up. Much better to have a time out from official training due to a heat cycle than due to a heavy injury.

ah, it is not sooo easy. It requires that I focus on her, but during the training there is some time where I respectively all the handlers have to do other things, e.g. adjusting the jumps to new heights for smaller or bigger dogs. But yes, I have to start at home by adding breaks to the agility training - maybe add a blanket as a dedicated rest spot, or get one of those soft crates as the dedicated break spot. I can't blame her, I asked for her focus when we started on this journey, now she asks for mine :laugh: .

yeah, this agility stuff made her quite addicted (me too I have to say :D )...if I don't slow her down before the seesaw she shoots up and reaches the other end while it is still in the air :laugh: ...

yesterday evening I came home from agility, despite that it was below 10 deg C I was soaked in sweat and totally exhausted. While I was reading news on the laptop I still could hear her playing outside chasing her plastic flower pot through the garden burning further energy (seems she likes to humiliate me by showing what an old geezer I have become :D ). The last 2 trainings had been cancelled due to storms, and every time we 'restart' the official training after breaks she gets very excited and her old herding habits break through - my down jacket has 2 new rips, however, I made it through the training without further scratches, bruises and bleeding :) . The problems are the breaks between the runs, e.g. when the instructors give advice or discuss things, or when it is just not her turn. We had a challenging big course, plus 2 smaller courses dedicated to special training (weavers, positioning for distance control), so she still was pretty busy, and her runs were not too bad, but during the breaks she got very jumpy and started nipping. If I train her at home using my cheapo agility equipment I made over time there are more or less no breaks - we just use the time we have. Back to the official training and she 'feels punished' by the breaks. The options I use(d) so far: time out (back to the car, station wagon with cargo barrier so it's similar to crating) to give her a rest to calm down - works sometimes pretty good, yesterday not (she came out of the boot and just kept on going). grab her collar (and that's not a force-free collar grab!!!) and a firm look with a 'NO' to prevent jumping and nipping till she calms down - works sometimes pretty good, yesterday not. just make her drop, and walk away a few meters; she knows this is an exercise where she can earn a treat at the end - if she performs well. Worked - and always works - pretty good, problem is that I still have to focus on her (have to get the timing right when I relieve her) which makes it hard for me to follow the instructors. make her drop and just step on the leash to prevent her from jumping - obviously also not force-free, but works best in those situations as it allows me to focus on the instructors. I saw this coming based on previous experiences when there have been trainings cancelled, so I tried to wear her out before the training with walks, runs, flirt pole games - works when it is really hot, but with the cooler weather now she just seems to have inexhaustible energy, and the biggest punishment for her are the breaks between the exercises.

I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed. Do you not feel confident that the training methods you employed with your 13-15kg over aroused dog would be successful with a 44kg over aroused dog? If not then yes, I guess you would be comparing apples to pears. I'm very confident that they would have been successful, but I'm also very confident that it would have been much more work with a 44 kg over-aroused dog,...much more work...E.g., while it wasn't really pleasant my wife could still walk our dog, thus sharing the work, but she wouldn't have been able to walk a 44 kg dog that pulls like crazy and tries to hump her. Eta:...we getting a little bit of topic, sorry. All what I wanted, was to suggest to put all options on the table, also the unpleasant ones. You are saying that your wife couldn't have employed your training techniques on a bigger, stronger dog. That seems like a big limitation on your techniques when it comes to dog training in general. That's why so many of us use and advocate methods that don't rely on compulsion, but instead work on motivating the dog to choose to do what we want them to do. :D ...no, that is not what I'm saying...the reason why my wife is not able to handle and train a boisterous 44 kg dog is simple: she can't train any dog, it is just not her thing. She can walk our dog, and could walk her also when she pulled, but she couldn't train her and never trained her. Saying this, now that I'm older she might be even stronger than me :laugh: , so it is not only about strength, also there might be scenarios where strength can help. On the other hand, it doesn't matter whether you do crazy walking with a 17 kg dog or with a 60 kg dog: it is about technique and timing, it doesn't need much force to correct a bigger dog while doing crazy walking if the force is applied correctly and the timing is precise. But if you don't have the technique, you just get dragged behind the dog. ...and no, she wouldn't be able to motivate the dog to choose what she want her to do either :D ...she is easily scared by other dogs, which doesn't help either.... I can't cook on the other hand... Eta: and the size of the dog matters, no matter what trainings methodology you choose. Reason is that the unwanted behaviour won't disappear just by choosing positive reinforcement, force-free or non force-free training. It doesn't make click and it is gone. Hence while you are on this journey there will be still scenarios that need to be managed which are more challenging the bigger and heavier the dog is.

I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed. Do you not feel confident that the training methods you employed with your 13-15kg over aroused dog would be successful with a 44kg over aroused dog? If not then yes, I guess you would be comparing apples to pears. I'm very confident that they would have been successful, but I'm also very confident that it would have been much more work with a 44 kg over-aroused dog,...much more work...E.g., while it wasn't really pleasant my wife could still walk our dog, thus sharing the work, but she wouldn't have been able to walk a 44 kg dog that pulls like crazy and tries to hump her. Eta:...we getting a little bit of topic, sorry. All what I wanted, was to suggest to put all options on the table, also the unpleasant ones.

I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed.

...was the skin sample taken before or after washing?...if it was taken after washing it could be still demodex / mange - they can survive in the follicles ...or could be even scabies (negative scraping does not rule out sarcoptic mange). ...

I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger.

IMO you should also ask yourself whether rehoming the dog is an option - it is not a puppy anymore and the list of unwanted behaviour is pretty 'impressive' respectively very serious, so the question is justified whether this type of dog is really a suitable dog for you.

IMO the dog's individuality plays a very big part in the whole training - there was a time I was really concerned that her whole training / education goes pear-shaped, when I didn't know what works for her and just couldn't get her focus when other dogs have been around. And testing different strategies bears always the risk to stuff it up totally - especially considering that my experience - compared to someone who trained hundreds of dogs - is quite limited (we also never had a BC, and this one is even from a herding / working line and has strong herding traits). Seeing now that everything comes together nicely is pretty rewarding.

you mean the one in the footage with her lab friend?...consider that I'm literally competing - with my few grams of treat - against over 40 kg pure fun :D !...and this is not just a dog or obedience classmate, this dog is the pinnacle of distraction for her. There was a time when she could have been hungry and I could have had the best of the best treat and I just wouldn't have existed when there was another dog (any other dog) around. Hence even just getting her attention when her lab friend is around means success :D . The other thing is that it was more or less the first time I used the mobile phone to record her on a walk for some training sequences. That meant that the phone (and it is in a pouch with a flapping lid) obstructed the view to my face plus one of my arms have always been up - it definitely stuffed up my body language and interfered with my hand signals.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5tk8c9vu38oews/WP_20160614_10_25_19_Pro-LLW.mp4?dl=0 ...LLW...now, to put this into a context, 8 month ago this dog went totally nuts when she just saw another dog, there was nothing else existent (there is a thread here on the forum about it). can someone confirm whether the links are working?...works from myside, but I'm not 100% sure about the settings.

...and it was a fun day too as we bumped into her best friend...when 40kg hit 17 kg... :D https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcgwa5ccta6rggp/WP_20160614_10_16_48_Pro-Fun1.mp4?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/q3qdpyher6xue3b/WP_20160614_10_20_49_Pro-Fun2.mp4?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/k4wta04p6ljhw0m/WP_20160614_10_32_43_Pro-Fun3.mp4?dl=0

...some recall training from today: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8s6rj5o3z7gb6a3/WP_20160614_09_42_06_Pro-Recall1.mp4?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ai8vqfmz4mr5pg8/WP_20160614_10_01_29_Pro-Recall2.mp4?dl=0 ...in the second clip she broke the 'drop' twice - filming with the mobile phone might have also interfered with my hand signals. Note: this clips are more or less only snapshots of her current obedience level (so showing only the results, not the journey - she is 17 month now). Focus to get there was always on positive reinforcement, but it was not total force-free as I used corrections too!

not sure whether this works (dropbox link)https://www.dropbox.com/s/a93t48jr9ldzgd3/WP_20160614_09_15_33_Pro-FlirtPole.mp4?dl=0 ...link should get you to a clip that shows some flirt pole training; some notes (I didn't bother to edit the video respectively to add comments in the video, so please take the following comments seriously): This game is a little bit tough as there is a lot of twisting, hard stops and jumping involved; if you want to try this with your dog you have to make sure that your dog is really fit, has no medical conditions, is not overweight etc. etc.... Be aware that in case your dog is spayed there is a significant higher risk in cruciate ligament injuries!!!...I wouldn't recommend it for bigger sized and heavier dogs as the impacts increase with weight significantly. My dog is used to this game, has only 17 kg, only muscles and bones, is entire, and her traits as a BC makes her an ideal athlete for this game. You recognize from the video that I trained her in front of the house on the green strip - there is no fence etc., cars passing by, people working on the other side of the road. Choose the place wisely!...and never let the dog drag a leash / long leash behind him in this game for the 'just in case' scenarios - the leash will tangle and can cause serious injuries! The flirt pole: just a rope and a rag from the garage and a PVC pipe from Bunnings. Make sure that the rope is thick enough - not for strength, but to avoid nasty cuts!...only play tug when the dog has a good grip of the lure, don't pull when he only has a grip of the rope! I normally don't use treats for this game as the game itself is rewarding for the dog. I always throw some stands, drops, place etc. in to test her response to these cues.

beautiful dog ...the box trick is very helpful when asking the dog to step on the scale :D ... wrt treats: I trained her not to take treats from the ground; I drop a treat on the ground, had to say 'NO' at the beginning,...she doesn't take it, as a reward I pick up the treat and give it to her from my hand....if I see her fossicking I still have to use 'NO' from time to time, but we getting there.

...nice video, the only flaw in this video is that there are no dogs that show unwanted mouthing / nipping behaviour :laugh: ...don't show me only the result...show me the journey...another video teaching the dog picking food up from the floor ...that's just swapping one bad behaviour with another bad behaviour....another one showing the result , but where is the journey?...all these videos are under educational videos to demonstrate force-free training...

...and I thought this site http://ppgaustralia.net.au/ promotes 'force-free'?... ...the lady clearly uses force in the beginning by counter the pulling dog! ...and the relieve of the tension gets rewarded!...That's not force-free!...and it took her a month to get off the driveway!...call a spade a spade, accept that force can be useful and achieve what she achieved in a month in one week with crazy walking!...that's in total much less force that the dog would experience!!!!Eta: video(s) can be found via this link http://petprofessionalguild.com/forcefreetrainingvideos ...if you put up such a website, at least make an effort to look for quality educational material otherwise the whole idea backfires...

not much concrete information on this page, however, scrolling down the page I stumbled over the picture that says 'LEAD BY EXAMPLE' and I ask myself why do they promote such an advanced harness-collar system if they don't apply force? ...why do they promote a harness that constrains a dog more than any other harness and collar would, if it is not about controlling the dog via a leash?????? ok...found some information under educational videos, e.g. ...now while this looks all 'positive' - would you do this outside a controlled environment, e.g. on your daily walk along streets?...and if you can't do it during your daily walk as it would be obviously far too dangerous, do you just stay at home with your dog in your backyard till your dog adopts a perfect loose leash walk?...or do you use a leash and go out and accept some not so force-free moments?another big big flaw (for me) of the demonstrated training is the way how the treats are offered in the clip: I don't like that my dogs picks up treats from the ground - for obvious reasons: focus of the dog goes away from me to the ground, she learns that it is ok to pickup food from the ground - if this dog in the video sniffs later a treat on the ground outside the leash range, you know what will likely happen...my dog gets food in her bowl, and treats from the hand - no exceptions. The video shows force-free training, yes, but it is IMO far from being a good training, it has methodological flaws and it is limited to a safe controlled environment. Eta: ...you get to this video via ADVOCACY button --> ADVOCACY VIDEOS --> EDUCATIONAL VIDEOS .... Eta: ... I was wondering what she was actually doing in the last 2 section of the video (where she sits on the veranda and then when 'she puts it together')...so watched it again this morning...that's just terrible, you can see from the last sequence that the only thing she taught the dog is to pick food from the ground.

...that kelpie looks gigantic ...is it the angle the picture was taken or is it really so huge?

:D ...that should give you more than a little bit of faith!

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change. Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive. I think argument for the sake of argument is highly rewarding for Willems. So when we try to punish by saying "you are wrong, here is why" he actually finds that to be an opportunity for reward because he can argue back. We all know it too, I suspect. We know that not responding would extinguish the behaviour, but we continue to engage for our own reasons. Excellent example of how animal (including human) learning and behaviour works :D ...as I tried to explain in my last post: it is a little bit different; I get 'zapped' by the 'force-free' promoting army to make me believe that force-free is the way to go - that's just not very convincing isn't it :D ? We posted at the same time, and you're exactly right (except I don't think the posters in the thread are the "force free brigade", no one has claimed that). The operant conditioning way of stopping the debate with you would be to just not comment. If no one responded to your posts you would get significantly less out of posting and would most likely get bored and stop. The fact that we continue indicates that we get something out of it ourselves. In my case, I enjoy a good debate about anything really, and even though you never agree with anyone else you are clearly not an idiot, and I don't think you're trolling, you just like a debate. Which actually supports everything Kavic, TSD, Mrs RB, Cosmolo, Corvus and I (apologies anyone I'm missing) plus science, have been saying. ...that's actually my understanding of a 'forum', ...debates, life discussions, getting challenged via questions, rethink own opinions and positions, exchange ideas, benefit from other's experience, gain knowledge...(and I actually agree quite often, however zapping is just not very convincing for me, it needs solid arguments I can't knock over... :D )