Willem

...I don't agree - that's not a classic example of force training :) - it is actually no training at all as it obviously doesn't teach the dog anything. It is just applying aversive stimuli without any (positive) outcomes (so in a way it is just plain stupid). Classical examples where force is used in training are: lead corrections, e.g. for crazy walking that leads very quickly to decent LLW; or just using force via the leash to prevent uncontrolled movement of the dog (e.g. towards a car, running across the road, chasing other dogs and cats); using force to get dogs in positions - possible with some dogs without applying any stress (if the dog trust you); using a wire crate instead of a soft crate when there is a chance that the dog likes to break out; force in play / games: you can't play tug of war without force;

...but when you train recall you want the dog moving towards you - if you click when the dog turns the head he might just stand there (whether he is 2 or 50 meters away). For the recall it is hard to find the right timing for a click as moving towards you is a whole procedure, hence I can't see an advantage using a clicker for recall training. You have to start off just a few feet away & I usually do it with two people both armed with treats & a clicker. If he doesn't return to you after he has turned his head, then he doesn't get the reward & it means you have increased the distance too soon....you have set him up to fail. You only use it in the early stages of recall, not when he is 50 meters away. ..but click means immediate reward...so if you click when he turns and starts moving to you, the task is not finished (whether it is 2 or 50 meters) - I can see the advantage of the clicker for LAT or LAM, but not for recall training as the timing becomes somehow inconsistent compared to LAT / LAM. Eta: and if the distance becomes too little to allow for the correct timing respectively immediate reward / click he doesn't have to move at all...

...but when you train recall you want the dog moving towards you - if you click when the dog turns the head he might just stand there (whether he is 2 or 50 meters away). For the recall it is hard to find the right timing for a click as moving towards you is a whole procedure, hence I can't see an advantage using a clicker for recall training.

...the success might also depend on the breed; I know what my dog would associate with a flying pillow ...fluffy, moving...must be fun ...and when it drops on the floor or hits her ...let's see whether I can make it move again .... :) Eta: and she is not the most confident dog...

I did all of my recall training with a 5 m leash (or without leash on the trainings oval or in off-leash areas) - 10 m is only useable if the dog is calm and if there are no other dogs, if it gets wild it will just tangle around the legs and it can cause severe injuries...a 10 m leash is very very long. I also contemplated a while about an emergency recall, but then decided against it. Reasons: I would have applied the same methodology of positive reinforcement I use for the 'normal' recall, so why not focusing on the 'normal' recall aiming to get it perfect?...if I recall my dog she has to come, no matter whether it is an emergency or not - IMO an emergency recall would have devaluated a 'normal' recall....but then if I would expect that she doesn't come all the time when given the 'normal' recall cue, why training it at all?...just doesn't make sense to me. Her recall now is very good for her age and training, I have no doubt that if she keeps performing and learning like the last 8 month it will become perfect over the next 3 month. Wrt the article in the link: I'm not sure where the advantage of using a clicker for the recall training is - at the end you want to be able to recall your dog from far distances via whistle or hand signal and due to the distance there will be quite some time between giving the cue and arrival of the dog respectively when he gets the reward, hence I can't see an advantage of adding the clicker sound - for triggering the recall from a bigger distance it is not loud enough, and as a reward it is not required. My recommendation: just keep on doing what you described in your post #15 about your training in the enclosed dog park. After a good run you should already be able to recall him with a good treat, keep working on this ...increase distance and frequency and you will be surprised how good is recall will be.

Yep. Same with Rosie. ...ok....The leave-it cue will allow to mark the cat living together with the dog (Lincoln) as a leave-it item over time; once taught, it is easy to reinforce and after a while it becomes imprinted that cats that are living together with Lincoln are no prey. Outside the house, on walks, the 'Leave-it' cue still works, but in case a cat crosses the dog's path you would have (likely) cue it again to discourage the dog chasing the cat...or whatever other animal it will be. We have no cat(s) or other animals living in the house, so I can't test it, but I use 'leave-it' quite often on walks for other wildlife or cattle she is keen to chase. I could start some training with her guinea pigs that are living in 2 compounds in the backyard so (no problems to call her back from the compounds).

I don't believe that 'punishing' with a pillow or a towel and a 'BUHU' will work - especially if it is a confident dog: the hunting / chasing instinct is a very strong instinct and while throwing a pillow might interrupt the chase (it is a Rottweiler, I don't think he will be bothered too much by a pillow), it won't leave an impact for long. Nature / evolution took care that 'predators' won't give up so easily on hunting, also when there are mishaps sometimes. To eliminate the chase via punishment it would need some stronger stimuli, and the stronger the stimuli the higher the risk that it will cause other behavioral issues. And there is the challenge to find the correct level of the punishing stimuli with the first attempt(s). I'm not against punishment, but in this case I wouldn't do it - it might work 90% of the time, but then there are the last 10% when he is not supervised and a little bit bored and recognises the golden opportunity....you get the picture. The leave-it cue will allow to mark the cat as a leave-it item over time; once taught, it is easy to reinforce and after a while it becomes imprinted that cats are no prey.

yes, it becomes a cue, but that's actually the requirement that would allow punishment (re. corvus' comment post #7) or corrections as consequence if the dog doesn't respond to the cue. The dog doesn't know that he shouldn't chase the cats - the 'LEAVE-IT' cue, once taught, will communicate the message to the dog and the cats will be marked as 'LEAVE-IT' items. @ the OP / shekinah wrt methods playing take-it / leave-it games without the flirt pole (Rotties are indeed not suitable athletes for this game - too heavy and not agile enough): you can start just with 'tug of war' using a toy. Use a toy with a flat surface where you don't have problems to retrieve it when you teach the 'LEAVE-IT' cue. Dog is only allowed to take it on the 'TAKE-IT' cue. Lots of rewards (treats and another turn) and he will learn the cues fast. Later you can attach a rope (thick rope, not for the strength but to avoid nasty cuts) to the toy and pull it behind you - that simulates a real chase game better than just 'tug of war' without the risks involved in the flirt pole game. Eta: the 'LEAVE-IT' cue has also the advantage - once the dog understands the cue - that it can be used for all other animals (and objects). E.g. you walk the dog and bird or other wildlife catches his attention - he might know now that he is not allowed to chase cats, but he wasn't taught that he is not allowed to chase all these other interesting creatures....again, the 'LEAVE-IT' cue would allow to communicate the message easily.

I always trained it that 'LOOK AT THAT' meant 'LOOK AT ME' at the end, and used a toy (stick, ball etc...) I held in my hand away from the body using it as a 'lure' to get her focus back on me when I hid it behind my back (this version is pretty popular on YouTube)....it's just a clever way of redirecting the focus from an object the dog wants to look at back to me. Treat as reward linked to the verbal marker or clicker. Frequent repetition imprints this wanted reflex (dog's focus back on me) and links it to the clicker or verbal marker. This approach allows the handler to control the distraction respectively trigger for the distraction (toy in this case), hence it is training in an absolute controlled environment. Once the reflex is imprinted it will also work - depending on the arousal state and how stable the dog is - in an uncontrolled environment, e.g. when the dog's focus is triggered by another dog. Today I don't have any problems anymore to get her focus and use the verbal markers (clicker sound with the tongue, her name, 'eh') during 'normal' training as required.

LAT is an excellent method to train the dog's focus towards handler, but you still need a cue to stop or prevent him from chasing cats...or you have to play the LAT all the time when he wants to chase the cats. You can use sit, drop or stand to interrupt his chase, recall or you can teach him leave-it. I use the flirt pole (pipe, rope and lure) to play take-it / leave-it and it is a very effective way to control 'chasing'. Saying this: your dog is only 4 month old and training needs some time - at least regarding reliability. Hence starting with LAT will give a good foundation for all the other training. Some further comments to the flirt pole game: the game is physically challenging and dogs will jump, twist, stop and bounce very hard etc. when chasing the lure, hence it is not suitable for dogs that are not fit or known for hip, spine or joint problems. The bigger and heavier the dog is, the heftier the impacts will be ...and you can't play it in slow motion either. If you think it is too harsh for your dog, then just train the take-it/leave-it via 'tug of war'.

...I forgot to mention: if you let him fast, make sure he still has access to water! wrt fasting: fasting allows the stomach acid to become very concentrated and deadly for viruses and bugs. Plus it saves energy: if the digestion system doesn't work properly the energy the dog gets out of any food you gave him is limited, however, it still needs to be processed which consumes quite some energy. Therefore fasting (1 day doesn't hurt an adult dog as long as he isn't heavily underweight) is an excellent remedy to allow him to take care for himself and boost his immune system. If 1 day fasting doesn't cure it, that means it is something serious...means vet.

...24 hours fasting...

my 'preferred' explanation why most dogs prefer softer ground for pees and poos is that it is harder to remove :D . Peeing and pooing is also communication and marking - it sound plausible that - if the dog e.g. marks his territory - he wants that the message can be read for a long time. Poo or pee on a flat rocky surface (or on bitumen / paver today) can easily bee washed away. Hence - so my theory - evolution taught them that it is better to find the right spot on softer ground where the 'message' stays for longer.

while our BC is not fussy regarding eating different kibbles, I could recognize that if I feed kibbe with grain the poos became more runny...tried it multiple times, every time the same result....so ended up with VIP grain-free and Applaws grain-free... always buy it at Woolworth when it's on sale. (In addition to the kibble I feed all kind of chicken parts, turkey necks, briskets and kangaroo meat). But labs are different animals :) ...considering that they can eat food (?) that would easily kill other dogs / breeds they might thrive on less quality food.

...I looking at this one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252082600653?euid=d921bb079a6349dc925a9dbed6450052&bu=43776903119&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu ...size XL for just AU$ 76 (incl. shipping)...has curtains to block view all around. A little bit lightweight (4.5 kg) according to the seller, so quality might no be so good...but if it's totally rubbish I still can send it back - the K9+ Royale in a similar size (M/Large) weights 5.5 kg and cost AU$ 160 plus AU$15 for shipping - that's $ 100 more for this 1 kg heavier material (thicker material ? = better?)... I don't envisage to use it for 'crating' at home, it is only for giving the agility training more structure regarding the breaks between the turns, and she is not destructive (except when she starts nipping my down jacket and shirts :D )...so should do.

yep, Pavlov works for the interests of these brands too :D Eta: ...I had to throw the 'Pavlov' in, otherwise we would be really total off-topic :laugh:

Trust me the latter comes with practice. Lots of it :laugh: Your dog will forgive your mistakes so make sure you do as well. And video your training - use your iPad or iPhone and a tripod - they are very, very honest!!! ...that's a keen assumption (that everyone relies on this specific brand - must have something to do with conditioning :laugh: )...just for the records: it doesn't have to be a product of this specific brand :D - I use a windows phone and a windows convertible and it works just fine too :D (disclaimer: ...take last comment with a pinch of salt - we don't want to go off-topic regarding brand discussions :D )

I think Tor's approach is a good way to use the stimuli with the highest value (other dogs) for our own advantage. Once the dog settled on the learning path of positive reinforcement this playtime on our own terms can be really used as reward - and it seems to work. Conversely I don't think that isolating the dog from other dogs will erase this interest in other dogs (I guess it is strongly linked to instincts) so there is a big risks that the recall needs to be trained / reinforced anyway the moment other dogs are around. Plus the social interaction with other dogs is a very important part too and best learned when the dog is younger and grows in to it. Eta: ...wrt highlighted text I have to correct myself - I know at least one dog that seems to be not interested in other dogs at all, however, I'm not sure whether this is a good behaviour...at least it doesn't seem to be very natural and balanced for me.

Sydney cats and dogs home is technically a pound - we adopted Scottie straight from them - that said they also foster and rehabilitate a bit more than your average pound. I'd consider myself a more educated owner - and in that case - I think it doesn't make any difference. I know what I want, I know what the risks are and if I walk in looking for a foxie but walk out with ... a type of dog I've never owned ... I either know what I'm in for or where to get help when I need it. For a newbie owner there is a lot more risk - and I think a good rescue works like an ethical breeder - there to help and advise - and maybe even re-direct. I met a potential new walking client the other day with a mastiff cross who's grown to over 40 kilos - she told me he was her first dog and they only wanted something about staffy size - she didn't know what she was buying when she picked him - she said it was only when someone told her paw size is a good indication of the size the dog will grow to be that she realised she'd bought a big dog.... good points ...whether it is a problem dog (and the problems are disclosed and known) or not - the problems start with the potential owner: some will just take it as a challenge and can handle it without becoming a real problem, for others it will be catastrophic. So getting more knowledge about the dog is only one part of the equation - and maybe not the most important part as the question, whether the potential owner can handle the dog or not is the real crux.

...that's pretty much what I did, and it worked!...8 month later now and she has one of the best recalls in her obedience class (really close to 100% - no matter what the distraction is).

...that's an interesting one. When we had our problems to get the focus of our dog (see link in post #4) people also suggested to keep her away from other dogs for a while. I decided to let her still play and run with other dogs, but on my terms and for dedicated times. E.g. I gave her a good run with the other dogs before the official obedience training, or when we caught up with her friends in an off-leash area, but I also refused contacts when in trainings mode, on walks or in off-leash areas during training. I'm very happy with my decision. The runs with other dog is IMO not only very beneficial for the dog's physical health (muscle development, fitness etc.), but also regarding mental stimulation, socialisation etc.. She was not the most confident dog, but letting her run with the big guys really boosted her self-esteem. Training after a good run was also much easier and the value of the distraction / appetitive stimuli (=other dogs) faded after a good run. When her recall was somehow reliable, I used the socialisation before the official obedience training also to test her recall - and was in for a nice surprise: I could call her back while she was running in a pack with other dogs, she got her treat and as additional reward another turn. It teaches her that she can have both (treats and runs / play time with other dogs) - if she is obedient. Isolating the dog from other dogs might see a faster result in training, but will the recall be more reliable when there are other dogs around?...I doubt it. Plus there will be the missed opportunities regarding socialisation with other dogs. Saying this, I can recognise now that the method (run / playtime on my terms) was the right one for our dog, but it doesn't mean that this is the silver bullet for every dog - the right choice will always depend on the individual character of the particular dog. Eta: ...I think the highlighted text is very important. Trying to call a dog back while running with other dogs with only little chance that the dog will follow the cue bears the risk of reinforcing the unwanted behaviour. Minimise the attempts - best only one attempt, if it works, keep on going (but don't overdue it), if it doesn't you have to wait till the recall without distraction is more reliable. Choose also the time for the testing wisely, give your dog a good run first as the chances are much higher for success when the dog is a little bit tired and the values of the two appetitive stimuli (treats vs. run with other dogs) shifts. The better the recall, the more challenging the scenarios for the recall can be.

...some serious crate training :) ...

...sounds promising! wrt submissive behaviour: for puppies and younger dogs some submissive behaviour is quite normal, some dogs grow earlier out of this, some later. Be confident, plus a lot of playtime (perhaps also with other dogs with the same energy level) and encouragement and she will grow out of it.

your dog is now just 5 month old?...don't be confused, your dog is investigating and for him it is trial and error (he doesn't know what is wanted and what is unwanted behaviour, he just tries to interact with the world outside). Wrt corvus' comment: ...I guess you could also get the dog in the car and drive to her or catch up in the middle or wherever it suits both. Sometimes all what's needed is some reinsurance from an experienced dog trainer / behaviourist and some ideas wrt what are the right training methods for the individual dog, and the earlier you get this guidance the less trial and error approaches from your side.

@ MRB & TSD:...it's now the next big objective and focus for her training...(and one soft crate is still cheaper than a few ripped shirts and down jackets :D )