kami

Well, i think today confirmed that the two dogs, well, just aren't destined to be besties. Rusty races up and play bowed and put on the full works - Annie just kept avoiding avoiding avoiding!But no snarks at him. She was super anxious around people with him there (but eventually settled) she clearly feels (despite some serious effort from us) that Rusty takes time and attention away from her. She is so much calmer without him there. She basically blanked him. I think Thistle has it in one - Rusty is such a friendly forgiving boy that Annie ignoring him was making him anxious, and making him try harder, which was making Annie more nervous - an ever increasing spiral. Probably resolvable except for the lack of any interest on Annies part, but they should tolerate each other at family gatherings ect.

I think so showdog. Rusty and Annie (and both of us!) seem happier and calmer with the two dogs split up. Mum and dad seem rather reluctant for Rusty to go back to the shelter ("you mustn't make any hasty decisions") and are taking steps which show they see him as more than a temporary inhabitant (reinforcing the gaps (about 10 cm on the back gate to ensure he doesnt get out - even though he was meant to leave today...). so we have taken the steps to call the rspca and cancel the surrender for now (at mums encouragement). They should be reasonable doggie parents - are happy to walk him twice a day (has had 3 walks in 24 hours!) will need to be taught how to loose lead walk him, or with a gentle leader. He would have a very large suburban 1/4 acre block to live on and is a 5 minute walk from the beach. My only caveat if they want to keep him long term is that I must persuade my mum to do training with me once a week to ensure he keeps his good manners, and teach them how much more effective positive reinforcement can be. I figure its a good excuse for mother/daughter bonding - but will also stop rusty from developing bad habits, and teach my parents good ones. I will also have to teach my mum and dad some self control when it comes to feeding - love can be shown through playing not just through food! I have given them guidelines on appropriate amounts to feed and explained a beagles stomach is, essentially bottomless. We have agreed to take Rusty for holidays if they keep him, so we would put him on a diet when he comes to stay if needed. If this doesnt prove an effective option for Rusty or my folks, it gives us loads of time to find him a good home through Beagle Rescue or save a dog, so that he is matched with an appropriate home (maybe as an only dog!) In the future. All the cute pics I am sent from my folks show him calmly sleeping or lying on their rug, or walking on the beach. Will take Annie to visit him today, which will be interesting. Will post back on the final outcome with some pics if my folks agree to take him for good, or to update if we rehome through a rescue group.

Hubby and I decided we will rehome the more easily adoptable, stable tempered dog. Given Annie's recent behaviour I am not sure she would pass a behavioural assessment. As Taliecat stated with her dog, we would not feel comfortable in rehoming the neurotic dog with significant ongoing behavioural issues to someone else. Even if in our hearts we are developing a stronger attachment, and would be better suited to, a life with rusty the beagle - we might well be consigning our bonkers one to a short or miserable life. It does hurt to make a choice which actually makes us sad and isnt actually the best choice for us - but is the seemingly best choice for both of the dogs overall.

Thanks for everyones advice. We have taken Rusty to my parents for the next few days unti we have to take him back to the rspca, so that we could have a trial separation as it were, in case Annie turns out to be rather happy to see him after a few days, and to make sure we can really do bring ourselves to do it. Rusty has been impeccably behaved at my parents place (we gave them the rusty guidelines) and so far no accidents or misbehaviour at all. I wonder if Annie also makes him nervous, as he is so calm without her around and visa versa (maybe it is a good change for him too to not be around her). Our house seems very empty, quiet and peaceful without him around (a little boring too, but not at a continuous high stress level) . He looked for us a little, but perhaps having all his familiar things and having visited my parents a few times it mustnt seem so scary. Whatever happens we will send all his things - crate bed toys ect with him to make any move less stressful on him. There is a little part of me that hope that Rusty might worm his way into their hearts ...... they have had dogs before but not one so well trained and beautifully tempered (an indictment perhaps on the old school training techniques they had trained their old dogs with). They are continuing all his positive reinforcement and crate training while he stays (we have shown them some basics). Rusty has already lost his nuts. Save a dog does sound good - we don't want him to really go somewhere without any interest in maintaining obedience. We will have a chat wth the behavioural team at the rspca - take this time without him to really ponder the options.

Thanks for your kind words Snook. They really mean the world under the circumstances. Its so hard because Rusty is finally settled, and generally a very well behaved all round dog. His destructiveness has decreased, and his seperation anxiety is much improved. we are based in the south eastern suburbs of melbourne, around moorabbin.

I would like to thank everyone again for their suggestions. We have utilised some of them, but unfortunately the situation continues to escalate. Rusty is becoming increasingly fixated on Annie, who continues to actively avoid him - to the point of running to find me and hide on the bed so she doesnt have to go outside and have supervised pee time with him Rusty and hubby (with hubby separating dogs before things escalate). Active intervention and redirecting is not working. Perhaps different people, with different skills could get another outcome; all I know is that we have done everything within our capability to get the two dogs to get along, and don't want to compromise Rusty or Annies welfare. So we have taken Rusty back today and met with the admission team at the rspca. Can anyone provide any ideas as to a better way of rehoming him? We dont really know anyone suitable to rehome him to, and was not sure whether taking him to a rescue would be a better option? Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. Our back up plan is to surrender him to the RSPCA tuesday - the behavioralist who saw Rusty and Annie together will assess him separately before he can be adopted.she thinks he should be quite adoptable given he has been having lots of obedience training and is now crated trained and toilet trained. My only other thought is to talk to the trainers at our obedience club and see if they know anyone....

Update: We had our session with the behavioural team at the rspca, and it gave us quite a lot to think about. Based on their observations the dogs basically ignored each other, and there was no real interaction between them. No signs of play or acknowledgement. No outward aggression either in public at least, but we didnt expect that. In terms of what we are doing with the dogs and what they would normally suggest there wasn't much they could add in terms of interventions. They were concerned that Annies behaviour had deteriorated, (she also submissively peed while there), and agreed she was quite an anxious dog. I raised the possibility of switching her off prosac onto clopirimide (?mate? not sure of sp.) And they said they would raise it with their behavioural vet (who is someone called Gabrielle Carter, who is well known I believe?) The other possibility was increasing Annie's prosac dose. Essentially they offered a treatment plan, but didnt think it would do much. They also suggested rehoming as the other alternative. Huw and I were more taken back than I expected. We are seriously considering surrendering Rusty, as in the mean time Annie nearly bit Huw accidentally (He was giving her a tablet at the time and had his hand in her mouth) when Rusty caMe over and got too close for Annies liking. She snarled and pressed down on Huws hand, whilst flipping over but not too hard. This happened about 4-5 days ago approx. I have some general questions for the generous DOL community - 1. Is 3-4 months enough time to get an accurate perspective of their relationship? 2. Is it normal for dogs to not interact or play with one another? If not, is it possible to develop this in dogs that appear not to care for one another at all? 3. If we do go ahead with rehoming would you recommend we go through the rspca or a private rescue organisation? They seem confident they would have minimal difficulty rehoming him (which I agree with) but we want to find a good home for him,with dog knowledgeable people, would wont leave him in a backyard, and who will continue the training and stimulation he needs (loads of toys, and interaction). He is a great dog - calm and even tempered with people, does suffer from some separation anxiety , is destructive but this has lessened (but would be fine with a retired couple or two dog household). We are considering a trial separation to see how Annie responds to Rusty's absence. It is very sad for us both as believe it or not, Rusty is the more normal, sane dog - we love him dearly now. We don't really feel Rusty bully's Annie per ce, just that she is not coping with having another dog around. If we didnt have Annie, we would never give him up - but we recognise that Annie needs people like us. He finally learnt to retrieve and play with toys properly with people tonight, which was a happy sad moment :-(

I missed this thread! Here is a recent link along the same lines from dogster from the perspective of a person with a reactive dog on 'friendly' dogs and uncooperative humans. A good read for those without a reactive dog (or with one). Dogster article I do not like off lead dogs approaching Annie and I or Rusty on lead. I hate even more when people attempt to pat Annie without asking, as she is highly nervous (Anyone can put Rusty - such a chilled out boy). They interpret her submissive over the top enthusiasm as enjoyment when actually it is anxiety and fear based (if I am really really submissive and nice to you maybe you won't hurt me? Is how our vet described her). All it does is reinforce undesirable behaviour. People really shouldn't assume that a strange dog is friendly or that they should touch someone elses property without asking - just like they wouldn't go hug a strange human without getting to know them first.

Hi guys not sure if you have read this article but thought it may resonate with you guys :) Off lead dogs drive me nuts too, Annie wants to chase everyone of them - frustrating when you are in an onlead park! reactive dog article from dogster,

Willem i appreciate your suggestion, but don't think it would be a great idea for these two guys. Annie is a lovely, intelligent dog who has significant anxiety despite many interventions and strategies to minimise this. She has improved in that her separation anxiety is reduced, she is no longer afraid of men, no longer handshy, less noise phobic. She has shown fear aggression in certain circumstances (at the vets) and redirected aggression onto my husband when we intervened previously during the early stages with her and Rusty (only once, before we sought the advice of our trainers and did work with collar grabs and positive associations). She simply isn't an overly stable dog (although we really love her lots and lots). I don't feel it is appropriate for her to sort out these issues with Rusty, as I believe there is a high possibility of this being generalised to other dogs. She needs our help and to feel confident she can rely on us IMHO. My big fear is that if things escalate, it could potentially turn Rusty from being relatively adoptable (super cute and adorable, appears generally confident and outgoing, jumps minimally now, has learnt basic commands sit drop stay ect, and toilet/crate trained) to potentially dog reactive/aggressive - or the same for Annie. While Rusty initiates by being annoying, Annie is starting to react back, and I have no doubt if she starts something she could finish it of she wanted to. Right now, Rusty is much more adoptable than when we first got him IMHO. We would love to keep Rusty, but not at the expensive of Annies happiness - or his. 10-15 years of spending time with another dog who avoids you isn't going to be much fun for Rusty either. If we can't prove up to the challenge of solving this quickly, with a reduction in aggression, I believe it may be in both dogs best interests to be apart. In the mean time, we watch and wait :)

Thanks Snook hubby and I agree about supervision - no more window supervising for now until we feel there are more respectful and tolerant interactions and time has passed. Will let everyone know what the behavioieal team say, they said they will try and get us in asap given we have already tried loads of stuff they have suggested.

Lol we sure do perse.He was a deceptadog! I believe we would now be his third home in a year (he is one year and three months old). Probably should set of some alarm bells for us! Fourth if he came from a breeder. A lot of disruption and disconnection for a dog so young...

Hi persephone, thanks for dropping in :) At the moment we are trying to minimise time spent together alone for the dogs - so when I have to do stuff around the house, one will be inside, the other outside - with a kong, bob a lot, or frozen lambs neck ect. Sometimes we will crate one, have one out. We try to rotate it to make it fair. We are also doing training together.with simply commands, and rewarding one dog when the other gets a treat to try and build up some great positive associations for when they are together. It seems to be when they are outside alone there are issues, even when kept an eye on. Yesterday they were only alone together for 20 minutes after a walk - when they had their big kerskuffle. We know little about Rusty's past, except that he has been a second dog twice before, had issues with housetraining (now largely resolved, had a recent accident but before that not for over a month) and destructiveness. Strangely his prevoous owners kept him in a choke chain as they said he kept chewing off his own collars (wierd). Apparently previously had difficulty with crate training, but now much improved. Still needs work on being crated without Annie around (we like to be able to take them off alone separately when required to go to cafes ect for doggie human socialisation time one on one).

Thanks for the pointers Mrs. Rusty Bucket. It is clear supervision must be active at all times (which I feel will be hard long term, but certainly we are happy to try in the short/medium term). Collar grabs we can do some positive reinforcement with, and use to give rusty a choice before giving him a time out if need be. Thanks for your recommendations.

Addit: last night they had a near serious blue while outside together while being monitored through a window after their walks (we thought they should be pooped, and that being monitored they were safe). Had to be separated by pulling them apart, no actual punctures but lots of hard bites snarls hackles up and retracted gums on Annies part. Rusty on the other hand, seemed to still think it was play......and would have kept chasing her if not for our intervention. This is despite them spending minimal time together except whilst actively supervised. What happened was that Rusty wanted to play, but Annie didnt. Rusty kept bugging Annie until she ended up getting too aroused, and then chased him and both dogs were standing up on their hindlegs, annies hackles up, tail down, lips fully retracted , biting at Rusty's face, neck and back. No actual damage to Rusty, but she continues to avoid him where possible (goes into crate away from him (we dont let him approach her in the crate). Will wait and see what the behavioural team says but the lst thing I want is for things to escalate to bites with damage.

Its a little complicated because Rusty is highly annoying, and obnoxious in his refusal to take no for an answer from Annie. He just refuses to respond to her clear signals to back off, and she is increasingly frustrated by this. He is the instigator, while his behaviour is bad, her anxiety is worsened by his presence and behaviour. Having watched and learnt more.about doggie behaviour I believe Annie is politely doing everything she can to get Rusty to back off - its just not working. I really don't believe these guys are a good match IMHO, and while it probably will be not well received by most, we are considering returning Rusty if we cannot figure out a way for these guys to get along. We both love Annie and Rusty too much, and one on one they are both great dogs for different reasons, but we don't want Annie to live life afraid - we worked so hard to turn her into a more confident outgoing dog. In the mean time, we are liaising with the behavioral unit at the rspca , where we got Rusty from to see if they have any ideas that we haven't tried.

Thanks guys. Will keep them separated and limit out time together for the moment to that directly supervised by us. I am thinking a trip back to the vet behaviourist is in order for Annie. It may be time to revisit whether prosac is still a good thing for her.

I am not quite sure where to put this one as it could fit here or under health. Annie, our slightly bonkers Kelpie has always had exceptional bladder control. However lately there have always been particular circumstances under which she would pee - if she was excited, or nervous this largely resolved when she was a single dog, but has reappeared with having a second dog around. Annie peed in her crate yesterday when asked to dit (she didnt want to sit at the time, and did so against her own inclinations - she has been trained to return to her crate (and is rewarded for doing so for duration) if she too intently starts stalking our pet pigeon. Lately she has also started submissively peeing around our second dog Rusty. He is a bit 'obnoxious' in that he wont take no for an answer if he wants to play. Lately Annie has been responding with increasing signs of aggression/arousal - hackles up all along back, snaps, snarls, tail between legs...retreats to kennel (then rusty will jump in and continue trying to rough house her). Today she submissively peed after he tried to hump her outside. She has also been biting her nails more. Both dogs are wearing dog calming collars. Any pointers on what to do with our young bully beagle to break things up? He clearly wont listen to Annies signals to give her space. What we have tried: - one on one walks/play time for each dog (daily) - one dog in crate/one dog out of crate (sometimes, aiming for once a day to give them time out from each other, one on one attention from us) - both dogs inside/outside, one inside/one outside She seems anxious, and keeps coming over to us for reassurance inside more than usual. Any pointers muchly appreciated :) cheers kamz

Can I suggest something a wise trainer suggested for our dog? Annie has a very sticky eye, and tends to fixate on people and other dogs. Nothing really seemed to work to get her to stop trying to lunge and pull towards people (we had tried turning away when she was over stimulated, getting her attention with brisk direction changes to get her to focus on us) - these things helped, but didn't cease the behaviour. It did however help when we trained a 'go get it' command - rewarding her for approaching people and other dogs (at a distance before she was over threshold - while she was calm but aware of them) and tossing kibble for her to chase on the ground moving towards the stimuli - breaking that intense eye contact she has, and getting her to focus back on us. We got to control her movements again initially with how we threw the kibble, and she came to know that 'go get it' meant that it was time to refocus on us, and get her attention back on the ground using her nose. Over time lunging has been significantly reduced. Rewards stopped when she lost focus on us, and she was taken away from the stimuli. This works a treat in situations around people where she gets easily over stimulated, or dogs at a distance. Annie is obsessed with two trainers at our obedience club, and this way I can quickly regain her attention and she learnt to look to us/down for rewards rather than focus on the other people/dogs. While I dont know if this will help your situation I thought it may be of use. Obviously needs to be done at a safe distance - while the dog is calm and hasnt lost control. Apologies if already suggested/tried, I have read the full thread previously but not lately, and my brain is fuzzy from late pregnancy lol. Best Wishes, Kamz

Thanks Roova! I'll definitely try silverside! Finding an economical beef cut is a challenge, so that is a fantastic idea. Budget mince also sounds a winner. I will try and think outside the box and also consider turkey. duck ect. Very impressive dehydrator btw! That looks amazing. Lucky dogs you have Roova :)

Thanks Scottsmum those are some excellent tips. The roast chicken thighs I will definitely try as the boiled chicken tends to fall apart in the hand. Drying it might also make it less greasy, which would be great! Tuna I will definitely try - will make a nice quick iceblock with kibble. Luckily my two love fish! I have been a little worried all the fat from the chicken in the stock would be bad for the dogs if given too often (they get it every second day, to day *sheepish grin*), so this will be great for them. I have heard nothing but good things about ziwipeak, so depending how we go with budgeting we will give it a go in the future. Everyone at training rates it very highly. Our guys have meals for mutts for kibble which has worked wonders for our allergic dog, and they both have lovely glossy coats. Thanks again for your pointers! :)

I have begun delving further into the world of making my own dog training treats and frozen ice stock blocks to save money. So far, I have found chicken is economical (on special for $3 dollars a kilo for a whole chicken, or $4 a kilo for drumsticks. I usually buy in 2kg lots, then boil, using the stock (unseasoned) in big ice blocks as treats for the dogs on hot days, and stripping the chicken for general training treats. I have also experimented with oven baking chicken hearts as training treats, and will try liver when it is next on special. However, I have found lately I have been getting stalked by wasps at dog training while using the boiled chicken, which is also messy. The chicken hearts are easy to make, baking at 180 degrees until firm to cut - and so far appear wasp proof. Heart and boiled chicken are kept in the freezer until required. Any other good value meats people have found work well for baking/dehydrating for training meats or making stocks from ? I am a little reluctant to try other offals initially until we switch to a wormer that covers for hyatid disease, but am interested in the future. It seems way cheaper for me to make my own treats at home than buy them from the pet shop. Interested in what people find works for them that is not made commercially.

I would second trying underdog first, they were brilliant at helping our kelpie overcome her separation anxiety, and become a more confident, outgoing dog. Conventional medications from our vet were also a saviour for us. Consider a adaptil collar or spray in the short term which make your dog feel more safe and calm, and may help with the transition to a new quieter household.

german pinscher right for first time owner FYI may be of use

Petar I wanted to put a different perspective out there from the other posters. Right now you are probably wondering why people are giving you a hard time - when you could just go out and buy a dog like everyone else. They are doing so because they are very experienced, and have seen many other owners make a bad choice with breed or type of dog, which can have often terrible outcomes, both for humans and dogs. People that post on here may be breeders, trainers, or dog groomers, and have far more experience than your average joe dog owner. My husband and I are relatively new to dog owning, but now own two, a kelpie and a beagle. People may be perceived as being a little discouraging on here, to the point of the ones that are even suggesting you don't get a dog but instead get a cat. Don't take it that way. My partner and I struggle everyday IMHO to meet the needs of our kelpie and beagle, to a degree that I would consider adequate. By no means do I consider myself a neglectful owner. Our dogs are walked daily, and attend dog training twice a week. Its not just about the capacity or willingness to exercise your dog or have them inside with you. It just that often dogs require a high degree of stimulation and interaction to ensure they have meaningful lives, and don't develop behavioural issues. What will you do if your dog does not tolerate being along for three days a week, and develops ongoing barking issues, and your neighbours make noise complaints? (Happened to us with our first dog, who was being left alone for 5 hours at night time) how will you resolve it? There are a whole raft of behavioural issues that can occur when a dog is left alone for a long duration including separation anxiety, which which may be expressed through destructive tendencies, or your dog may roam and try to find you! What are your fences like? People are also suggesting you get a breed which does not have aggressive/guarding tendencies. I would strongly support this statement. As a first time dog owner you will go through such an enormous learning curve even if you choose a relatively 'easy' breed. People often struggle with guarding breeds due to their dogs wariness and suspicion. How will you foster positive interactions between your dog and other dogs? People? Do you really want your dog making executive decisions on who/what is and isnt a threat? Managing normal aggression issues in regular dog is hard enough for a newbie like me. Look at training methods before you get a dog. What is your understanding of how a dog-human interaction should work? Some information on the Chow Chow for example which outlines its not so desirable qualities for first time owners: http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/chowchows.html This website I found highly useful when deciding what breed was (and was definitely not!) for me. Look up al the breeds and then decide what you can live with and live without. I just want to take a moment to thank you for beginning the process of doing some thorough well informed research into what is the right breed for you. Stay open minded, dont take anything said personally (there will be good reasons behind everything - explore why? With people posting on your thread) and be aware that what you initially want may change as you do more research and spend as much time as you can with different breeds. P.S don't get a Kelpie or Beagle :) if you want to know why, look up the breed description on the site! We love ours dearly, but they require as much time and socialisation as a toddler IMHO for differing reasons. Shed horribly too :) Welcome to dogzonline, and I look forward to reading more about your dog deliberations. Best of luck, Susie