Cosmolo

Of course Vickie- i discuss clients requirements with them and all of the dogs i know extremely well. As we run these classes infrequently, people wanting to trial would need more regular classes.

There is no need to apologise- i don't think for a moment that we are 'beyond reproach and question' when it comes to training and in actual fact as a result of this discussion, i have some new exercises to try.

Cool, i shall give it a try on Sunday.

ETA Kavik- what were your original contacts/ ie how were they trained?

Thanks for posting that link Kavik- that looks great. I will see how my dogs go doing that and let you know. Did you just shape it?

I understand the rules PF- 99% of people in my classes do not want to compete at all AND i have yet to have an issue weaning off any hands on- its not forever. I am not trying to be argumentative, i am just explaining my experience/ position.

Here are a couple of videos of dogs who have done a bit more agility with us as well as alot of other training. (have permission to post) They still have a long way to go but i think they are doing well. I am sure it will get picked to pieces but oh well. Apart from reward delivery and a bit of luring, the dog isn't touched and having been touched previously doesn't cause an issue.

ETA BM its okay- we're not beyond criticisim from others and i have explained my position. Others have different opinions. I am pleased you and Bundy worked so well together.

Thanks Kavik- the first video is a great idea. The second video (which i have seen before) i am not convinced about. I really think that has potential to scare the dog more than someone guiding the see saw down to earth? Is that something you would introduce later down the track? I had planned to with one of my dogs but didn't think he was ready yet so interested in your thoughts on when you would introduce this.

Owners were taught to lure weavers. Guiding with the lead was not directed by a trainer- the lead was moved above the weavers as not to tangle when we started- i appreciate that didn't happen in the video.

I disagree with regards to completely hands off- we lure everything but for contact equipment we do hold the dog to start with. It would not matter to me how much foundation training had been done, i would still want to support the dog their first few times on full size equipment. The techniques i learned are a combination of what i learned from well respected trainers in WA (some time ago) with more recent experience. I respect that not everyone will agree with any method of training, but its what we have found most succesful given a wide range of factors.

I respectfully disagree. I absolutely agree that foundation training is important. I disagree that introducing obstacles (as a way to see if dog and owner like it and assessing where they are at and what will require the most focus) at an early point is a bad thing. Please don't get me wrong- i do understand where you are coming from but i think differently.

I have clients who do agility once every 2 or 3 months and others who do so more regularly. Regardless- every dog and handler is taught new handling skills each time before we do anything remotely complex. There is no way i could get the committment fron 90% of people to regularly complete agility and do 3 months of foundation training. I know some would say- then they shouldn't get to do it- but again, i disagree.

Dogs on lead are problematic. Dogs running off and endangering themselves or others is also problematic. Dogs doing equipment with 2 people holding them and helping them are a disaster? I disagree. Dogs were not going hell for leather without assistance or help and handlers received assistance before, during and after to ensure the dogs progress was positive.

I have been to a number of agility classes (at various clubs) where leads were on and dogs were on equipment (heavily supervised) night one. I have not seen a dog scarred by this- i appreciate that others have.

I don't think you will need a lead next time either BM- but a short lead would be a good in between step i think- then its there just in case you need it.

I think i will get OH to make some that we can use for the dogs not yet reliable off lead too- the problem will be having enough different lengths for all the different dog sizes but should be able to have a few.

Where would i get them from amypie? I did look for them when we bought all of our new equipment as i had trained with similar before but couldn't find anything like that anywhere. Thanks for the suggestion.

I just wanted to clarify a few things regarding Bundys run. Owners are given an opportunity to do one round at the end of a workshop- they aren't thrown into one round with no prior teaching- i just didn't video all of the other stuff! Dogs are gently introduced to each piece of equipment- if there are issues, the dog does something more basic until they are comfortable and wouldn't include that equipment in the course run.

I understand and respect the opinions on the lead issue, i really do. But i have a different position- agillity improves focus and reliability so i don't always believe every dog needs to be 100% reliable off lead before commencing. The aim is to get the lead off as soon as possible but i will not let a dog off until i know they won't take off. I believe this is responsible- i understand others feel differently.

The weavers can't be pegged- we deliberately bought weavers that weren't in ground as we work on an indoor surface at times and weavers can't be pegged- they seem to be getting less secure as time goes on though so this will be rectified. Nobody planned for them to fall! The see saw can't be adjusted either and no dog goes over by themselves until we are confident- there are still 2 people holding both dog and see saw in the video- i have never had a problem teaching this way, but i understand others feel differently.

I absolutely respect the opinions of those who posted here, but with the exception of a few things (like the weaver issue) my opinion differs.

Any ideas on how to fix the weavers (without getting in ground ones) would be welcome.

I got to see the litter my pup came from at 2, 4 and 6 weeks so that comment is not entirely true. My breeder was absolutely ethical and responsible.

I know its frustrating- can't choose your family.

Oh Kirty- you haven't had much luck lately! I hope he is okay. You may want to try Chia seed in combination with any treatment- there is another thread with info in here at the moment.

We have just started feeding and selling Chia seed after great results with horses. I am looking forward to seeing how the dogs go on it. Its one of the few products that has the correct balance of omega 3 and 6.

I'd love to see one ness, thank you I will see if i can get a video of the way i have done it too, maybe i'll give it a try with the JRT.

I wouldn't use a command to start with- i'd just wait for her to offer it to you- be patient, might take a little while the first few times.

ETA- Spend some time conditioning a marker word or clicker first- this will speed up the process when you're out there. What kind of collar do you walk her on? If the lunging is difficult, you might find a front connecting harness helps to allieviate some of the lunging while you do the above.

If the first few runs were great- you should have stopped, jackpot rewarded and put the dog away.

Do you do any clicker or marker training with her? If so, take her to the point where she is aware of the dog but NOT reactive. Stop, stand and wait until she looks at you, then click/ mark and treat. The more repetitions the better. Avoid going beyond threshold to start with and progress gradually. You could also have a look for Leslie McDevitt's "Look at That" game which would be helpful.

Thanks for the link- i had read the method ages ago but just had another read as i had it in my head that what i do and the SC retrieve was similar.

I teach it in almost exactly the same way- particularly as far as the criteria steps go- BUT i start with the dumbell on the ground. I must admit, i haven't trained that many dogs to do it that way so perhaps i would run into problems with some, although i haven't as yet.

Even if you're free shaping JP?

Just read through some of the other suggestions re: taking dumbell away and representing. For those who do it this way, what advantages did you find using this method? Does anyone have videos of it being done really well that i could have a look at?

Not sure what others think but i would put the dumbell on the ground and leave it there. I wouldn't keep moving it around and i'd continue to free shape from there. I don't think there is enough value on the dumbell as yet and i think getting her moving (over to the dumbell) would aid in this. Then you can click and throw the food away from the dumbell, to set her up for another repetition. I think this creates a much more independent dumbell retrieve too- you won't have to fade out other body cues from you but it will take longer initially. I think you need a much harder, faster nose touch before you think about her putting her mouth around it.

I wouldn't touch her either- one of my dogs is the same- although she may tolerate it at other times, there is no way she would accept it while we're shaping.

Ouch- hope you heal fast. :D

I think 2 of the most painful bites i have had didn't even seriously break skin- one was on a hand that was already bruised. I was playing tug with my kelpie x and she grabbed my hand by accident- dropped me like a sack of potatoes. My OH was watching and had turned around for a second he didn't understand what had happened- one minute i am happily playing tug next i am on the ground in tears!! The other one was with my big bull arab type during agility- he was wildly excited missed the tug and got my hand instead- let go instantly but i still thought i had broken something, it hurt so much!!

I haven't been bitten breaking up dogs fights yet (touch wood) but sometimes adrenaline makes you do strange things without thinking about the consequences.

ACD x

Whats your address TSD- i need to swing by for a ..cough.. visit. I promise (crosses fingers behind back) i won't steal her. :D

Congrat everyone.

Steve- our website has to have a .com.au on the end to work. Thanks!