Cosmolo

Ptolomy do you have any video links to good and 'bad' ones- ie, ones likely to be marked well and ones likely to be penalised.

ETA- TSD- My JRT does the same kind of bounce into heel, usually accompanied by a tiny bark or growl.. Who was it that said i was crazy to shape a bark!! LOL

Sounds awesome TSD- where are videos of said gorgeous puppy and older brother though!??

Lol Corvus- so true!

I would use shaping or channel weaves for most dogs but have taught successfuly with luring previously.

No physical punishment or verbal punishment ever, but i would consider using a no reward mark or putting the dog 'away' if needed. Most mistakes in agility if not all are handler problems though, either incorrect cues, body language, lack of training, handler too slow, handler not motivated etc.

Reinforce every time, then chain obstacles together and reward at the end of every chain- every time.

We see Dr Michael Righetti in Ormond as well and he is WONDERFUL.

I have heard very good things about Burke Rd Vet as well.

while i usually would agree with what everyone else is saying- i have a dog here that will not tolerate tablets hidden in food to the point where if we try it, he will not only spit roast chicken (or similar) across a room but he then becomes very suspicious of ANY food we try to give him for days after that.

So, i refuse to hide tablets from him now and instead put it down his throat as quick as we can and then give him multiple food rewards afterwards- this seems to work the best. When we started doing this he would still drool and get stressed but it has improved significantly over time.

In addition- every few days, open her mouth and physically put a food treat in there- a pleasant surprise.

Preferably a good trainer. Do you go to obedience school?

Otherwise- a front attaching harness combined with Leslie McDevitt's "Look at That game". There should be some youtube videos to help you understand what to do.

Dogs can learn bite inhibition without putting their mouth on people. Just because a dog does or does not have good bite inhibition doesn't mean they are more or less likely to attack- it does suggest that the dog with inhibition has the ABILITY to do less damage than one without. But a dog with good bite inhibition can still bite something hard- thats the whole point, they can adjust depending on what they are doing, how they are feeling at the time.

Allowing pups to mouth is fraught with difficulty. Who decides what is too hard? How do you make it consistent between people who are different or different tolerances depending on where the dog mouths you? It IS safer IMO to teach no teeth on people ever and to then provide appropriate outlets through tug of war etc.

Why do dogs attack?

Poor Socialisation

Poor management

Poor or no training

Bad Experience

Genetic predisposition

Medical Issues

Or a combination of all of the above.

I am actually going to agree with Corvus and K9 Pro here. I don't think many of the points being made here are incompatible.

The question is not does it work. We know it (positive r) does. But there are times where we need immediate supression using another method in combination with PR and THEN continue on in a more positive fashion. Why do we need immediate suppression? Because the owner is about to give up on the dog in some way- either just mentally (they develop the attitude of 'the dog can't do it), OR dog is left in backyard OR dog is rehomed etc etc.

Owners have this idea that they should be able to train dogs themselves, especially because they did so 20 years ago or their parents did- things were different then and we need to remove the guilt, embarassment, stigma attached for some people with going to training OR seeking one on one help. It doesn't help when handlers are told BY trainers that their 12 week old puppy isn't good enough to do any more than be a lap dog (owner wants to trial) or that their young large breed dog is great but its a pity the handler sucks- i have had these people speak to me just in the last few weeks. As if that attitude will help! And these are just the people who persist- how many are there who get disheartened and give up??

One thing that seriously disappoints me about many trainers (ALL types!!) is the lack of genuine understanding of the practical application of classical conditioning. Trainers that lean heavily on positive reinforcement should have CC as their basis but many do not and then the training falls down for a good percentage of dogs. A lack of understanding of 'drive' is also a problem.

I also believe that clubs need to get better at directing someone to private training that may suit them better, Dog and puppy sources need to improve at promoting prevention type dog training and that we all need to improve how we discuss these issues so that it does not become or continue to be an "us vs them" situation.

Is it a paling fence that has wooden horizontal struts (that can be used as steps for a fence jumper)?

Rehoming a known fence jumper is not legal in Victoria.

Have you considered angled fencing additions and concreting the bottom of the fence? (for the mean time until the underlying issue can be addressed)

Wait just a second.. what kind of fence is he scaling? What has happened when he did jump the fence- did you go and get him, did the neighbours bring him back?

I have 5 dogs (2 working dog breeds, one of which worked the first 2 years of her life on a farm) in suburbia with an average size backyard. I wouldn't be using his breed as the reason for scaling the fence- particularly if he copes well with all other aspects of life with you.

First of all, have they discussed these issues with the trainer they have seen? Does the trainer know what is actually happening at this point in time? If they do know and there has been no resulting, relevant advice- they need a new qualified trainer to assist them NOW, before the issue escalates further.

Yes i think its expensive- but they market it as cheap because (and another franchise do the same) of the lifetime guarantee. I guess it depends how you look at it too- i'd be lying if i said it was rare for clients to spend that amount with us over a number of private or group training options etc.

Woofen, that would be true in some cases i'm sure, but not all.

ETA I believe there are probably some people don't get help because they can't actually afford it- some others simply don't make it a priority to justify spending any money.

Many vets recommend Bark busters- i think they may have a kick back type scheme with some.

Corvus, from memory i think a consult was between 400-600 and includes a 'lifetime guarantee'

I think its important to remember many people don't really know how to define success when it comes to training their dog or fixing the problem. If there was an immediate decrease in the behaviour (suppression) they are likely to tell others it worked. Doesn't mean the dog is fixed or the behaviour will remain suppressed long term.

What makes you think the behaviour is separation anxiety?

Yes thats another point too- the learning from each other. But one of the bitches was raised pretty separately from the older bitch who was raised with another dog (also assertive and a bit dominant with others himself) who has since passed away. The 2 younger boys were raised with both older bitches. None were socialised with strange dogs with each other during their critical periods.

You're so right Jules- i am also alot happier since accepting that Cosmo does not have to put up with rudeness. When she was younger i wanted the 'friends with everyone no matter what' attitude- i now believe that was pretty unreasonable.

Dam it Jules, i wanted to see what you had said!

Hmm.. I don't see it so much as the actual act of precision.. But more the desire to be precise. Its hard to explain- i know it when i see it.

I haven't thought about work ethic being about duration. Do you think its possible for a dog to have a great work ethic- for short periods of time?

I agree with Nek- not acceptable behaviour but given the size of the dog and its current behaviour they would be wise to seek help- Now!!

I am not seeking a definitive answer to this but rather, very interested in all the different perspectives- I am using my dogs as an example but i am sure there are others that are similar. I don't have any definitive thoughts on this, but it is something i have pondered recently.

I have 4 dogs that have been raised by myself and or OH since they were young puppies- all varying breeds and backgrounds. We have one other dog who was an adult rescue.

During puppyhood, the dogs were all socialised with other dogs but were not exposed to other dogs that had overtly rude body language or rough playing styles.

Now as adults- ALL 4 will appropriately correct rude or rough dogs to varying degrees if we don't intervene (we do intervene 95% of the time) The one dog we did not have as a puppy will not correct any dog no matter what the situation.

So the question is- Is the lack of exposure to rude/ rough dogs created the lower level of tolerance to such behaviour and body language. OR did myself and OH naturally choose puppies with the same personality type- assertive, bold etc. OR a combination of the two.

Does socialising a dog with rough/ rude dogs as a puppy (where they do NOT become frightened or injured) increase their level of tolerance as an adult? Does neutralisation to varying degrees decrease a dogs tolerance for rough/ rude dogs?

I see work ethic as being a bit different, but then as i start to think about it, maybe its not I tend to think drive can interfere with work ethic..

Work ethic- To me this is the dogs desire to be accurate, precise, to give 110%

But would it then be fair to say that the above is determined by the dogs drive.. Because a dog with higher drive in theory should produce the above.

How do i then explain a dog who has a similar level of drive to another, is super fun and keen to work, but is not as precise and doesn't seem to care if he is a little inaccurate.. I wonder if his lower threshold to drive means that the witholding of the reward when he is less accurate has less of an impact because he is already self rewarding (ie, he is already having so much fun within himself) Lower work ethic? Or just missing a training step through not removing the self reward, ie opportunity to train.

Its also important to consider drive threshold too- just because a dog may be harder to get into drive initially wouldn't always make them low drive.

I have a dog here who i consider to have a moderate level of drive but a higher threshold to drive than two of my others so i have had to work harder to bring that drive forward. Its also questinable as to whether or not that threshold to drive is innate in her or created by me through some poor training early on. Now that that has been rectified she is a super dog to work. She is VERY easy to live with- but so are all of my 5, despite their varying levels of drive.

What do others think about work ethic as well for trialling dogs? Do you think some dogs are naturally more precise or is this all learned and training related?

I would look to do some active shaping and/ or targeting. Would be a good idea to get a trainer to help you though so that you don't accidentally sensitise her further.

Never could. Not only would i lack the knowledge and time regarding the care of the bitch, pregnancy, whelping etc- i would find it very hard to have puppies raised in my home and rehome them, let alone if there were issues or if a puppy buyer didn't do what i wanted them to re: training and socialisation. I am too much of a control freak.