Cosmolo

My dogs socialise regularly- with clients dogs, friends dogs and there are times at the beach or simliar where they can interact freely with others there but generally they choose not to as they are retrieving and swimming.

I have no desire for them to socialise with strange dogs in an uncontrolled way. I have seen what happens when things go wrong and heard about many dreadful situations. I don't want to increase my risk of that happening to my dogs by allowing random interactions.

It is very hard to get the message across to dog and puppy owners with regards to what's acceptable between dogs and what's not and why dogs should pay more attention to you than to other dogs.

Four legs roll- i find it seems to be less salty than some of the human ones.

Having recently become involved with Hawthorn East Vet (we run puppy class there) i have heard nothing but good things from all of their clients and have been really impressed with all of the staff i have met there. Shouldn't be too far from Balwyn i wouldn't think.

Kavik- i don't have such a workshop, much as i have recommended many dogs successfully for sport or work and we do touch on it in the behavioural assessment workshop, it's not really enough my area of expertise to run a workshop solely on the topic.

Anyone can organise a behavioural assessment workshop and anyone can attend. I do intend to make a date to come to Sydney probably early June- will decide this sometime next week.

With regards to dogs being worried/ timid/ fearful in the presence of the trainer. This can happen when aversive methods are used where the level of aversion is at a higher level than what the owner is able to deliver for whatever reason. It can also happen where the trainer preceeds a stressful situation which leads to the question- is the dog over threshold during training? In many respects it should be easier for a dog to stay under threshold in the presence of the trainer due to the influence of prior learning history, consistency, controlled situations etc.

For example when a dog meets with me once a week for 4 weeks they spend say 6 hours with me. With their owner, they spend 28 days x 12-24 hours. As a result the opportunities for inconsistency are greater (regardless of the handlers skills) AND the dogs only experience with me have been during those training sessions so if i have done my job well, they should not have had much opportunity to practice the 'bad' behaviours during my 6 hours of training time. With the owner, they have had months or years of practicing the bad behaviour hence why the dog over time starts to behave better when the trainer is present- it is context specific and the trainer is part of that context. This can be a challenge in itself as it can become harder to set up certain situations to help the owner to deal with them. I'd go as far as to say the dogs thresholds to reactivity are raised with the presence of the trainer, over time.

So i'd be examining why the dog is more worried in the presence of the trainer. It may not be the trainers fault- or it may be.

I am very happy to read your post too Panzer :)

Tdierikx- the testing done by the volunteers at DAS is our assessment. A number of ACT rescue groups have attended multiple training sessions regarding how to conduct the tests and it is not available online or without workshop attendance because of some of the reasons mentioned here. I don't ever want this test to be used as an excuse for killing dogs so it's unavailable without accompanying training.

Beahvioural assessment is not perfect.

I have been assessing dogs for years and have never used behavioural assessment as a way to kill dogs. In fact i really resent the implication that all behavioural/ temperament assessments are an excuse to kill dogs. How incredibly insulting. Over many years and many many hundreds- maybe thousands, i don't keep count- of dogs our fail rate would hover around 5%.

We use the assessment as an initial matching tool- either to place the dog in a suitable home OR with a suitable foster carer. Assessment continues once dogs are in foster care if that's the path taken. You most certainly can ascertain which dogs have more serious behaviour problems MOST of the time if you know what you're looking at.

I have dog owners telling me they adopted dogs from pounds that displayed serious issues while in care that have then been given to novice dog owners wanting an all round 'easy' dog!! This is unacceptable and i am getting sick and tired of it.

So what if behavioural assessments can only be used as a matching tool? I don't believe they have great predictive value either. But a matching tool is a darn lot better than putting random dogs in random homes like it's an impulse buy at the supermarket.

While i understand the concern regarding inappropriate temp testing and certain tests used in pounds and shelters horrify me, i strongly enourage people to not throw all assessments into the same baskets and make generalisations about how you can't assess in a pound environment. Actually you can have a very good success rate with the right skills, training, test and attitude.

I am actually quite sick of pounds releasing dogs and having no responsibility for what happens after that. Just yesterday i spoke to someone (not even a client!) who adopted a 45kg dog from a pound who is both dog aggressive and predatory with livestock. They gave this dog to a lady who is not physically strong enough to handle him, who wants a sociable dog AND has horses.. It's about time the pounds took releasing dogs ALOT more seriously. It has little to do with legal action and EVERYTHING to do with being responsible for both the dogs and people in the community.

Please don't split the pups up before 8 weeks of age. Google "Incomplete socialisation"- this is crucial for all pups but even more so for pups of a cross breed like these guys.

Here's what i don't understand. When it is suggested that correction chains or prongs can be problematic when not used correctly those that use them say more training/ education is required, ie- it's not the fault of the tool. Why then when discussing harnesses etc does this suddenly not seem to apply?

I'd consider adding solutions to 'the bad' and' the ugly' as there certainly are some good solutions to what is mentioned there.

I do agree with Nic B's thoughts too with regards to identifying the market you wish to target and providing quality information.

Are you going to write information for articles yourself or get others to do it for you?

Where can i get one of these 'front attack harnesses' Nek.. :laugh: :)

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the way these sorts of harnesses work, their use and benefits. I have a number of clients who use them with great success and they DO have corrective function- it's just a different type of corrective function to that of a prong etc. Of course for some dogs they are not effective, same as other tools are not effective for every dog, owner and situation.

Tools are just tools. They need to be used as an aid to assist in teaching loose lead walking in combination with the right techniques.

Whoops- meant to say Pet Resorts- will edit.

Pet Resorts with Glenn Cooke would be the best bet.

BUT i would simply never recommend B+T for this type of issue..

I would strongly recommend Glen Eira Vet in Ormond (they are our vet) or Hawthorn East Vet (who many of our clients use). Congratulations on your new puppy- i LOVE Cocker spaniels!

My eek is directed at the person who wrote the report not the dog!

I understand your point Santo re: the misinformation. But it is still a factor to be considered.

Of course handlers don't know what techniques to use. But many have preferences for or against certain things for a variety of reasons and this simply shouldn't be ignored. I don't ask clients what techniques they want to use (that's what i'm there for :) ) but part of my job is to gather enough information from them and the dog to select something appropriate for them- we talk about their previous experiences (if any) and their feelings regarding certain things tend to come forth at that stage. That's what i mean by taking their opinion/ preferences/ ability into account. There are lots of ways to gather information without asking the owner directly- what do you want to use- and that's what trainers need to do.

Don't assume you are doing something wrong. Talk to Nek and/ or your vet behaviourist to work out where to go from here.

But don't you consider least invasive, minimally aversive to be what's best for the dog? I think you can measure what's best for the dog- just not scientifically.

I would love to use classical conditioning with every dog and owner i see. But some owners don't want to/ can't for whatever reason. It's no good continuing to give advice when you KNOW it's not going to be implemented- that's where variation should come into play.

I don't think it's just about trainers being open minded to different techniques but also that they take into account owners preferences and ability- there seems to be a bit of a tendency to look more so at the dog and what training technique suits the dog- both sides of the combination (dog and owner) are equally important.

People have to use methods they are confident with, whilst having in the forefront of their mind- the ongoing welfare of their dog.

A method may be a great method but if not implemented properly OR if the handler is not confident with the method- it becomes useless. This is no one's fault- it's just the way it is.

There are certain methods that are easier to implement and certain things that tend to work across a wide range of dogs. I use alot of food and toy rewards in training because when used well, it tends to yield great results. But that doesn't mean this is to the exclusion of all other methods. It's a good thing that many in this thread have found techniques they are happy and confident with- remember also that you can always ADD to what you already do, and in some cases you may get even further improvements.You don't have to choose and stick with one things forever.

Cable ties on the bars may help too.

That sounds like a great plan Jelly