Cosmolo

Sterile was the wrong word choice- but i think you understand what i mean so no need for the rolled eyes.

Hi Vickie, thanks for your thoughts. I am talking about a dog who does know what is expected, not a dog who is not sure what is required. And i certainly wouldn't stop a dog continually on a course if we weren't getting it right. Let me try to explain a scenario (and what i may do) more clearly - the dog jumps off the dog walk without touching the contact. - i would consider removing the dog and tethering (no dragging, no collar correction etc, just quietly removing the dog) in an area where the dog can see other dogs run the course. i have found that this builds frustration and the dog realises he has to get the exercise right in order to continue. -I would then provide another opportunity for the dog to get it right OR depending on the situation, the dog in question may not get to run again that night- i would only do this if i could train again the following day- not with a week between training. I have used this method with scent detection where the dog understood what was required but just wasn't working at all on a particular day. She was too interested in the reward at the end as i had been feeding her meat from a fridge (as a final secondary reward) the 3 days prior when she had worked well and she was yet to realise that working well was the determining factor for getting fed. The 4th day where she worked poorly, she was put away within 5 minutes and not given the opportunity to work again (the primary reward as she loved it) OR get fed. A similar thing was also done with the SARDA dogs when one dog didn't work well- he was put away, other dog was worked and the following day only the second dog was worked while the first dog watched on and got frustrated. The day after that, the dog who didn't work well initially was begging to be worked and was better than ever. In agility it would be the denial of the opportunity to work as well as witholding of the tug toy we use as her reward. I have found that just witholding the tug toy is not enough if the dog who loves sgility is allowed to continue running the course or repeating obstacles. So the exercise should only need to be repeated once or twice and will obviously only work on a dog who has the running of the course as their primary reward. What do you think? Sorry if this is hijacking the thread..

kelpie chick makes a good point- many of the two on two off or stop on contact dogs that i have seen become quite slow going over the obstacle. I also like the suggestion of using different methods for different equipment depending on the dog. Going OT a little- i'd be very interested to know what all of you do when a dog jumps of a contact obstacle early in training- some people say go with the dog and try again, some might suggest a verbal correction etc etc What do you do? For a dog that adores agility itself, would you stop the dog from doing any more obstacles? I have had instructors during training tell me to finish the course regardless which drives me nuts because then the dog doesn't know they've done anything wrong.

Why on earth would you go to a clinic that was not clean and sterile- for anything, let alone puppy pre school? One of the puppy schools we run is at my own vet and i have no problem with the cleanliness of the place. And because i run it, nothing gets pushed in terms of vet products at all. Sure i talk about interactive toys and some people will buy a kong- what a terrible thing that is! And Dougie, just because you explain all of those things to your puppy buyers- what about others that do not? We can't tell people to go back to a 'breeder' or pet shop to get the information when many couldn't care less once they've been paid.

One of my dogs (who is extremely quick) will be trained to slow AND that if she misses the contact, she won't get to keep doing the course (she won't compete until she is reliable) Because agility is her ultimate reward and she loves to work, i don't expect her to take too long with this method. I have used it before with the same dog with success when training for scent detection and it only happened once before she realised that if she wanted to work she had to get the exercise right! Thats not to say i would use the same method for all other dogs though

Dougie- if you have never seen a 10- 12 week old pup with issues, clearly you haven't seen enough puppies! I question your experience with dogs of different ages AND breeds. And you fail to answer both questions i have asked in this thread.

What do you consider to be a 'one puppy wonder' Dougie?

I found with my youngest dog, that co ordination came with age and/ or experience/ practice and second what haven said

Dougie- i'd be interested to hear your definition of socialisation and what you do with pups before their second vaccination. What if the person in question has no children or other dogs in the household? Are you saying that safe socialisation in low risk areas/ situations is not necesary? How much do you know about a dogs critical period? Have you ever owned a dog with critical period issues?

greytmate- i'm not suggesting the dog has a problem with routine- far from it. My point is that humans have a hard time with a consistent routine (in turn effecting the dogs routine from time to time) with the dog having no possible explanation for why the routine has changed. In a large number of cases i find it is not possible to have a strict routine as the humans don't and it impacts the dog. The problem with the routine is the dogs anticipation of something happening (which can create anxiety in itself) OR the anxiety created when the expectation is not met.

Greytmate- i'm interested in your thoughts on developing more of a routine with the dog. If the whining is an anxiety based behaviour, i don't believe routine is necesarily a good thing. The biggest problem with routine is that it is usually difficult to adhere to for long periods of time (for instance, generally people don't keep the same routine on a weekend as they do during the week) and, when not adhered to- the dog has no way to explain why that has happened and hence, the feeling of anxiety worsens. Could you please expand as to why you find routine to be of benefit?

Are you planning on taking the puppies to a well run puppy school for training and socialisation? It is not the length of time that you spend with them that is most important, it is the quality of time- if you spend 5 hours practicing the wrong things- the 5 hours means nothing except you've furthered a problem. If you got one of the pups at under 8 weeks of age you need to get some professional help now to ensure that this puppy doen't have social problems now and later on. Desexing is far less expensive than the problems that can be associated with sntire dogs that do not belong to breeders but NO it is not a magic pill that will solve all your problems

I know a breeder who routinely gets all of her show dogs debarked and sees it as a normal practice

To be honest if i was specifically looking for a pup that was going to be some kind of working dog, i would leave that litter and find a pup that has both qualities- strong drive and desire to be with you. Drive is something i would not compromise on if i was wanting to do work that requires alot of it.

Sorry Rusky- i hope you're not trying to draw a parallel between a horse being 'positively trained' and a dog? Horses are prey animals, dogs are predators. I have worked with some of the top natural horsemanship 'experts' in Australia as well as a top dressage coach/ rider and there are elements of compulsion used in both. They work with the horses instincts but get the animal to move using some kind of physical pressure, however slight it may be.

Myzka, i'd really like to know if the dig about length of time was aimed at me? The fist time i saw the post was when you cross posted it and i offered assistance then. Like i have posted previously, we already help out where we can but we can't be everywhere at once. I disagree in part that giving free advice is advertising and promotion- sometimes it can be counter productive to the business but i do it because i care about the dog and its owner. The advice given is free and if it helps to resolve the problem, i don't get any business out of that. Giving advice on a public forum also opens us up to misinterpration and misrepresentation which also concerns me so i feel i take a risk in doing so.

Have an appoinments to rush out to but just quickly- Rusky- how do you find something more rewarding than a rabbit/ other dog etc given a dog that loves those things? Can you give an example

;) for Erny's post. Couldn't have said it better.

Rusky- anyone who loves dogs would 'prefer' to train with positive techniques only. Are you really saying that EVERY dog can be trained using positive techniques only? If so, i question the number of truly difficult dogs you have worked with. Why wouldn't you recognise that different dogs require different techniques? You didn't answer the question regarding a dog who sees something else as more rewarding than what you can possibly provide. As for what i would do- i would devalue the very thing the dog finds more appealing than my pats/ food treat/ toy, by using some kind of correction the type and level of which would depend on the dog. Aversive only training teaches avoidance of the aversive like you suggest. What i am talking about is teaching the dog that to avoid the aversive AND get something great, they need to do XYZ, in this example a recall. The value of what you have increases significantly when you devalue the alternative

I ask the same question as Erny re- time taken to put up our hand- and is that directed at me given that i offered assistance today? And i too do not frequent the rescue section of the forum. Is the dog alive is the first question we need answered. But i would also like to point out that many trainers and behaviourists are far from 'stingey' when it comes to helping out those in need. However we can't help everyone for free- not just because of $$ but also due to time constraints. I for one am flat out coming up to Christmas with all of my existing clients wanting that final session before the break. I want to work in conjunction with people in rescue/ shelters- not in opposition. We already work with an animal shelter at least once a week (usually more) to help with problem dogs and offer a training course specifically for rehomed dogs. The course is ridiculously cheap and a good percentage of the proceeds go straight back to the shelter. Of course anything else we do down there (including running sessions for staff and volunteers, assessments of difficult dogs etc) is voluntary.

I would be willing to put up my hand to do an assessment if the dog is still alive if the location is not too far away. I see the bigger picture but its little wonder why people hesitate to put up their hand for such things when that kind of attitude is present.

We are in the area, but all we could offer would be training/ socialisation- its a shame that this isn't an option as i could use 3 out of 4 of my dogs to assist.

I just read the last few pages and am quite put off about the attitude of some to a professonal trainer offering assistance and opinion. I realise this is not the fault of the OP but i would be disgusted if i offered help and was treated like that. I respect most people involved in rescue but would want to get some respect in return for my knowledge and expertise.

Rusky- if you read my posts i am not saying that you can never teach a dog a reliable recall with positive training. However you fail to answer some of the points i make in my last post, maybe i should be more specific- If you have a dog that is not motivated by food, a toy or attention, how would you train this dog to have a reliable recall in highly distracting environments? If the dog already believes that the distraction can provide more reward than you, how would you train the dog to have a reliable recall using positive methods only? How can showing the dog when they are doing the right thing and showing the dog when they are doing the wrong thing be counter productive? Whether or not the police dept use aversives or not, i still suggest that they train in drive, not just using positive reinforcement as such. I stand by my original staement that you cannot compare these dogs or any working dog to a pet dog as their expectations and opportunity for reward are dramatically different.

I think its more likely to benefit ed than anything else- especially if you use it to your advantage. If ed is not working too well one day, put him away (but where he can still see you) and train Molly and the next day just train Molly with Ed watching. The following day, give Ed the chance to strut his stuff and you should find he's trying pretty hard!! I don't think dogs get jealous in the same way we do but if they enjoy their work and you take it away for lack of effort/ bad performance, it usually helps rather than hinders progress