Cosmolo

CALB, have you spoken to the obedience club you are attending about the issues your experiencing?

Sounds like she needs some serious one on one training to get the serious issues resolved asap!! I would suggest that this pup needs more than just general obedience in a club situation.

Make sure he is not on a tight lead, ie. teach him to walk on a loose lead without the presence of other dogs and then reinforce the rule in the presence of other dogs. Dogs that are reactive on lead usually have a degree of frustration, fear or both associated with not being able to 'get away'.

Would have to say agility is my favourite- because we both love it as much as each other and it has built even more of a bond between me and cosmo. Already i can see it doing the same thing for Georgie as well. I love it because its not subjective judging as well- its one of the things i liked when i was show jumping horses too, you pull a rail its X number of faults, not someone deciding how and why you pulled the rail. I like obedience but am prouder of my dogs for the practical obedience they have rather than the trial type obedience and i find some of the finer points a little dry sometimes. Scent detection i love too- and it taught me an awful lot about training generally. Can't wait to try some herding with Cosmo- i think we'd love it.

I had always wanted horses and for years my parents refused. So i taught my dogs to jump instead, setting up little courses in the backyard. Then i did get the horses as well but started to train our family dog with the trainers i worked with at the shelter in Perth. She was 8 when i started training her properly and did pretty well considering. I always loved watching agility at the royal ag shows etc, and when i sold my last horse, the obedience and agility training really took over. When i got Cosmo, i was looking for a dog that could cope with almost anything- obedience, agility, scent work etc- i was lucky with getting her. Any dog from now except special circumstance dogs like Georgie, will be a high drive sports dog- whatever the sport ends up being for that dog. Before dogs there was horses and before horses there was nagging about horses and dogs!

Willow- i don't know if its your intention but teh tone of your posts is quite condascending. Information is received much more easily when people don't feel insulted.

What about a dog that is chewing some other kind of food- such as a bird etc- that you need to remove? Problems with a dogs meal can carry over to other high value items- food, toys or otherwise. I have never removed food from my dogs but i know i can if i have to and thats what i think is important. I would usually use a leave or out command (depending on which one of my dogs it is) and any kind of correction would be for the non response to a known command- but its not an issue for my 4 dogs. We use the example of a wolf pack and it was suggested that an alpha doesn't remove food from a subordinate. However, the point is- if they needed to for whatever reason, there would be no issue and the food would be relinquished- if it wasn't there would be a fight that the alpha would win. I totally agree with teaching the dog that you will add to their bowl, replace one food with a better food etc etc- BUT i also know that any kind of aggression would not be acceptable in my household. I am a little confused about the OP's need to have others remove food from the pup though? Is there a practical situation where you feel this would be important/ necesary? And i would not leave the pup in a strange environment to try to teach it not to resource guard- your likely to make the prolem worse through fear and uncertainty.

He looks lovely but i would get rid of such an obvious hand signal too. Otherwise its one more thing you have to wean off later so why not do it now? Your instuctor and judges would hate to see my hand signals- or lack of for a drop. I expect my dog to be paying enough attention so that i don't have to be quite so obvious.

LP- i know you asked Vickie but i'll answer too- if Cosmo makes a mistake, misses a weaver or similar, i give a no reward mark, usually 'no' as i've never used it as a correction. She really started to click last night as to what she had to do (particularly weavers) to get the reward and what it was that caused the no reward mark. If i feel that the mistake was in part due to lack of motivation, sometimes i'll have her toy and say (in a ridiculous voice) 'Don't you want this?' a few times, ask her to bark and go again. She rarely makes the same mistake twice. On the other hand i see people whose dogs make a mistake and the handler carries that burden into the next run or exercise so the dog makes the mistake again and again and it spirals downwards very quickly. In terms of reducing rewards, i think the dog should always get paid, the level of the reward should be determined by how hard the dog has worked for you, and yes, that is related to how well the dog knows the exercise. If i am loose lead walking, a verbal good dog every now and then will be all the dogs will get and the same for a simple sit or drop. So i would be a person who in certain situations would say, my dogs don't get a huge reward because they know it and know it inside out- if i reward them at a higher level for that, it limits my options when the dog is exceptional in terms of levels of reward i can provide. I reserve the great rewards for great efforts and great behaviour. Not rewarding a dog for simple things can get the dog frustrated- go too far and the dog loses drive to work, but a little bit of frustration will increase drive and allow you to reward at a higher level next time. eg. The dog sits on command and doesn't get an expected reward. The next sit command the dog is frustrated and tries something a bit different- sitting quicker or straighter- reward that and you elevate the behaviour to a new level. After a few more rewards you can repeat the process. Thats different to just stopping rewards altogether- which would see the dog deteriorate quickly as there is nothing to work for.

LP, i am not suggesting that Leo is uncertain as he runs to the bag- He is a more confident dog so that uncertainty serves to increase his drive and excitement. Just don't know whether it would be the same for a less confident dog. I get Cosmo wound up before some of her work and i agree, i don't think it has any negative aspects. Vickie, you make good points re body language, i have seen some very confused dogs at agility lately- they just don't understand what they should be doing or what they've done to 'cause' their owners body language to change so significantly

I tend to agree with you LP, and i think i will do something similar for Cosmo very soon. It is an interesting concept though that a dog could be 'disapointed' with what you had as a reward. Its interesting that you play with the toy beforehand- i would do the same but i just wonder whether the dogs response would be different if they didn't know what toy/ food was in there? Suspense is an interesting idea to- is it suspense or uncertainty? Could the dogs response be altered by termperament- uncertainty in a confident dog may arouse curiousity and increase drive, uncertainty in an insecure dog may worry them and decrease drive? I am thinking and pondering aloud so apologies if that doesn't make sense..

LP-am i right in thinking you vary whats in the 'goodie' bag'? What if he expects something thats not there? A concept that i have learnt about but don't necesarily agree with is that you should always stick to the same motivator for that kind of work (this is with the assumption that more than one think motivates the dog- not talking about trying to motivate a food only dog with a toy) so that the dog knows what type of reward they will be getting and doesn't ever feel 'ripped off'. What do you think? Good to hear of your success with finding 'come'. I am using it with a few clients dogs with success as well.

Good question- my motivation will depend on the dog i am working. I do vary between food and toy reward for Cosmo during agility but its rare that she will take food rewards during obedience. Georgie's main motivation is me followed by food and we vary the value of the food fairly regularly. The reward given definitely changes depending on the difficulty of the exercise. Loose lead walking for my guys will usually earn them some mild intermittent verbal praise while off lead tight heeling earns them a whole lot more! If i'm using myself, i'll usually run, spring from crouching to standing, ask Cosmo to think (her command for barking which she loves) spin them around etc. I am about to start using a target bag as well but will use it only at the end of the training whatever it may be if they've done a good job- is this how you use it LP, or do you send them to it multiple times within a training session? I think we need to have as many different levels of reward as possible- i've seen too many people only able to give all or nothing and never vary their 'all' if using themselves. The dogs get pretty bored pretty quickly! I remember doing scent detection with Cosmo which was difficult as she was only 3-4 months old when we started. When we were proofing her with non targets we upped the anty of rewards and if she'd worked well, she would get a big play and then straight to the fridge for a reward of a meaty meal. She worked well for 2 days an earnt her dinner. The third day she decided she wanted to skip the work and get her reward- worked terribly for a minute or so then kept motioning toward the door to the fridge. She was put away instantly, lost the chance to work and didn't get her meal at that time. You should have seen her the next day- she never looked back after that and worked very hard! Thats how i would intend to use a target bag.

Ness- how would the dog know when you are heeling and when you are loose lead walking? Or do you not want that distinction and want the dog to always be in heel?

I agree- I can think of a sport that all of my dogs would like- even if its something that i don't have a particular interest in. If i was that desperate for them to do 'something' i would find something they could do or did like OR modify my training techniques if appropriate!

Those are some pretty good suggestions! My girls name is Cosmo and she is registered as Cosmopolitan which i really like. Cooper is gorgeous too!

LP- if the dog wasn't suitable for what i wanted them to do i would keep them. I would exhaust every training avenue if it was something i was so deperate for them to do. I would hope that my dog selection skills would be good enough to prevent this from happening BUT if it did, i couldn't give up one of my dogs and they would just become a pet.

Does the dog lick at every interaction with the child? If so, you need to be careful with the corrections your giving because the dog may begin to think that every time the child is interacting with him, he gets in trouble. Set up the interaction on lead if its that reliable so that you can give an effective correction but then keep the dog near the child with lots of rewards so that he understands what the correction is for- not the child, the licking.

LP- i don't quite understand what you mean (sorry brain is sleeping today hence my lack of clarity in my own posts ) Are we talking about our own dog? Or clients dog? Or both? Have all training avenues been exhausted?

Further to that- i am interested to know what kind of network we as dog trainers have with each other in different locations. In keeping an open mind, do we bounce ideas off other trainers regularly or even have that option available if in an isolated area? Is it not possible to refer on in some places for logistical reasons?(Obviously DOL is an example of one place where we can do that)

Don't have an angle as such- just wanting to know if others refer on when they see a dog that doesn't suit their training style, or if they attempt to learn more about that training and carry it out themselves. There is no 'wrong' answer, just genuinely curious as to what others do in that situation if it arises.

Further to the discussion of preferences- If you had a dog come to you who did not suit your preferred training techniques and you haven't recently used the technique required- (for instance the dog requires an e collar and you have never used one or only done so a handful of times) would you refer on to someone else you know in the industry who is better equipped to teach using that technique?

Jesomil makes a great point as does Erny- i want to be able to assess a dog and choose the most appropriate technique to begin with as often as possible so that we don't go through a process of trial and error- which may happen if you always start with your preferred technique regardless and 'work your way down' through other techniques. This could prove both confusing and detrimental to the dog and owner.

Getting back to the original topic, its interesting that everyone seems to have a different definition of open minded. My definition is to be open to any humane technique of training depending on the dog, situation and handler. Others definitions tend to be open minded within a certain style of training. Do you acknowledge that our preferred methods will not work for every dog?

WMR- what i am suggesting is that there is no way to motivate the dog to go through the tunnel on their own. Is it your opnion that you would then not do agility with that dog?