Cosmolo

Thanks river star- we haven't changed any of our detergents/ washing powders etc and her skin is up and down so i wouldn't think its that.. Very frustrating not knowing what it is.

Thanks for that- if the need arises, does anyone know any good skin specialists in Melbourne? Does anyone have any information or opinions on the role (if any) that food/ diet plays with a contact allergy?

Our 15 month old Dane x Am staff has had skin problems/ sensitivities since we got her. She broke out in hives all over her body twice and those hives turned into bleeding sores. She went to the vet both times for treatment and has not broken out to that extent since. We are not 100% confident we know what the cause was-we thought it was a food allergy the first time but a shampoo allergy the second time (which may have also been the case the first time round but we had put it down to something else) She now breaks out in hives infrequently and they are minimal- 1-5 spread out over the body, not large and not turning into sores. They are usually gone within 24 hours. BUT, she now has a section on her back about 10 cm by 3cm that is discoloured- making it look brown when loking from behind against the hair growth, holds more heat than the rest of her and the skin is slightly irritated but no actual hives. The hair is also thin in that area. She has gone to the vet, was given a short 4 day course of macralone (i think thats what its called- cortisone type tablets) before being re-examined. When re-examined, we decided not to give further treatment and to monitor it closely. The vet said it was a contact allergy or that she may have permanent damage in that area if the discolouration has always been there. We did notice at different times that parts of her back always looked 'stained' but there was never heat, redness or sensitivity to accompany it. This came up after a malaseb bath (which she has had before with no problems- nothing different about this one) and now that she is not on the macralone it is worse again. It seems to get better and worse within 24 hour periods- a real roller coaster type effect. I will of course speak with the vet again this week. There are no plants in the back yard where she is kept but there is grass, no changes to her food (although the vet said its not a food allergy due to it being in the one spot) and none of the other dogs have anything like it. Has anyone else seen anything like it?

She does look like she was trying hard. Congratulations on your efforts- 16 runs in 3 days is massive! Just out of curiousity, how old is she? I love how she carries her head through the weavers, she looks very proud. Cosmo carries her head really low when she's weaving- is there any advantage to high head carriage do you think?

We can travel over your way by arrangement as well. And again, agree with everything Erny said- getting scary huh!!

tyramartimmy- i would be extremely careful in following the advice to pet your puppy as they mouth- thats a reward for putting their mouth around a person which IMO is NOT the right message to send. There are many techniques- redirection to something appropriate, ignoring, corrections etc. It will be different for every puppy but is something that should be adressed straight away. Pups need to learn bite inhibition- but they don't need to bite you to do it.

Ditto what Erny said- sorry to hear about her experiences with the boisterous dogs, I'm sure with the right assistance, you'll be able to resolve this issue.

Positive training to a high level is possible- but you must control the environment and the dogs life- as mentioned with the critical distance when dealing with aggression. Service dogs are trained with aversives because they MUST cope with distractions with a high level of reliability as human life is at stake. They also can't control everything in the environment around the dog when they are working so i believe that aversives are necesary in that situation. One organisation did try purely positive training with dogs for the blind and too many dogs became 'rejects' from the system or were somewhat unreliable in certain areas. Generally speaking (depending on the dog) i use some form of correction when dealing with aggression and have used the method described by jesomil with a great degree of success on many dogs.

Completely agree with you Pippi- handler limitations are very important as not everyone has the ability to train in drive well. And i also agree with the possibility that supression of that drive can result in problems. I tell people they can't inhibit the dog forever and that there needs to be some outlet for the dogs drive BUT, i wouldn't encourage them to do things to increase or build the drive, only to work with what they've got in ways that they can deal with. I love working in and building drive myself and do it with many clients- but its not suitable for all of them. As far as food goes, another arguement would be a dog thats trained in food refusal not to accept food without a command- it would be annoying to me to have to give an additional command to give the dog a reward which would then not be as well timed. My dogs don't have food refusal in that way so its not an issue for me.

You can use defence drive by teaching the dog that it will win/ achieve what it wants by its actions in that state of mind. You don't start with the dog in defence drive peak and some people will start when teaching a dog in prey drive and then switch to defence when the dog understands whats going on. It is uncomfortable for the dog to begin with but they can learn to enjoy it.

Extending the topic a little though- i have heard a reasonable argument for not training in prey drive in some situations (even if the dog is prey driven) A trainer suggested to me that most average pet owners want to reduce drive so why would we train to increase drive in those dogs. He also commented that he is seeing more drive related aggression than he was 10- 20 years ago. I had a client a while ago with a labrador that should have been a working dog- he could have done anything with the drive he had- customs, bomb squad retrieving, agility, obedience etc. BUT, the owners needed to reduce his drive straight away or he was going to be rehomed. So, we trained to calm him and reduce his drive rather than to increase it. It was the first dog where i thought it was a real shame- but the situation the dog was in was not conjusive to increasing his drive in any way And on the food thing, another arguement is that the dog will always depend on the food- to which i say, your not using it properly if thats the case.

Amhalite- when you were clicker training, did you find it difficult to control others breaching your dogs critical distance? What was your response to your dogs reactivity if critical distance was breached? (through no fault of your own)

Definitely NOT me. But i have heard a few people argue at clubs that if treats get dropped on the ground, it will disadvantage other dogs when they go in that area/ ring to work. But i think thats silly- if the dogs working they should be focussed on you not on what is on the ground.

When Cosmo was a puppy, we were doing scent detection and obedience and her level of obedience at that stage definitely interfered as i couldn't get her frustrated or to work independently during scent work- she would sit and focus, i would ignore and she wouldn't go back to the target because she believed that if she looked at me for long enough she'd get the reward. BUT, now, it seems to be very clear in her mind that the two things are different and its easy to get her frustrated or to work independently with scent detection despite her level of obedience being very high. I think it has to do with her understanding the totally different commands and body language and a higher level of drive than what she had when she was a pup.

I'd hardly call it forcing her through it- but having an instructor at the opening as opposed to an owner would only stress her more. Surely we're in a good position to assess the dogs stress levels? The other instructor vouched for the dogs response/ learning and response to what we were doing and its not as though they don't know this dog, her issues and us. We have set things up as best we can at home (with the feeling of a sheet etc) and there's no problem there. LP, she has only just started playing with a toy with us so she'll play gentle tug but looks at us like we're stupid if we throw it! She's not like Cosmo at this stage but considering she wouldn't play with toys at all when we got her, let alone take one we were holding- she's come a long way.

Just to clarify, we are not new to the club and we had already run the dog through a drum without the cloth a number of times with no problems- we broke it down into as many steps as possible. No wonder people stop going to clubs to train their dogs..

I don't believe that it was concern for the dog. I think the attitude has come about after they found out we're professional trainers- there have been other comments about this that make me very confident that thats the case.

Putting a dog through a sock tunnel for the first time. Instructor disputed that a) there were three people assisting (me at one end calling dog through, OH putting dog in at other end and instructor holding cloth part of tunnel in place as we had folded it in half and made it half the length) b) that we are pushing the dog and expecting too much. The dog had been happily completing other obstacles after some initial gentle guidance and was excited and motivated (to the point where someone who had met her 3 weeks ago couldn't believe the difference in her attitude/ confidence) to do something but a little wary of this new obstacle as she had been with every other obstacle when she started them. The instructor then requested that we do some other things with a normal tunnel which we did and seemed disapointed when the dog completed those exercises well- as it didn't gel with instructors theory. After completion of other exercises that instructor thought would assist (which the dog did brilliantly) still would not allow dog to attempt sock tunnel. Similar thing with dog walk a few weeks ago, dogs first time, a person either side to help and guide for safety (NOT dragging dog over walk) and told basically that dog should run over by self and if not doing such is not ready. I have considered changing clubs many times, but can't find a club that trains at a convenient time thats not miles away. Because we work during training hours ourselves with our own clients, some of whom require after hours appoinments, its hard to co ordinate getting to a club.

Thanks for the responses. So what would you be inclined to do in a situation where you wanted to do a certain exercise in a particlar way, one instructor agrees, the head instructor says no and won't allow you to do it in the way you believe will work for your dog? In this case the instructor doesn't try to force an alternative on to you but rather, abandons the exercise completely. (and its an exercise that requires equipment so would be impossible to do at home)

To give some extra thought to the slightly off topic part of this thread- although i think its more than slightly OT!! When dealing with behaviours where the dog is in drive, the chemical aspect of the dogs brain needs to be considered- the dog can and does receive a chemical reward in the brain- alpha waves and endorphins- so even if you do withold something, it doesn't matter as the dog has been rewarded. To give another example, i have a pet hate of extinction training for mouthing in puppies being used with working breeds like ACD's who are in drive when they're doing it- it doesn't matter if you ignore, the behaviour is self rewarding anyway. I have dealt with 3 adult ACDs in the last 6 months who all had serious issues, in part, as a result of ignoring mouthing as puppies. To work with an aggression issues in a 'positive way' CAN be done BUT it needs an exceptional understanding of critical distance AND that critical distance must never be breached, only worked in gradually in controlled environments. That can be difficult for people who walk their dogs and don't control what others do. I know of one trainer who is a 'positive trainer' who i would feel comfortable referring people to who have aggression issues. Funnily enough she is a trainer also in Perth who also has an excellent understanding of other methods/ techniques but through her knowledge base, chooses not to use them. She also acknowledges that appropriate corrections do work and that some dogs may require such methods. I have the utmost of respect for this trainer even though i use other methods, as she is well educated in all facets of training and what she does works. Just because i would do things differently doesn't mean that the thoughts of others are not valid.

For those of you who train at a club, who do you feel makes th final decision as to what your dog does and doesn't do? Is it you or the instructor? This is of course assuming that the owner is not being unreasonable with a request or exercise (like taking an 8 week old pup through straight weavers for instance) and has been training with the club a period of time.

Seeing as its gone off topic- WMR, your not the only one who gets bailed up at training and criticised about the way that you train. I use elements of positive punishment and still get that so don't think that its just positive trainers who get 'bashed', because we do too- either for the way we use rewards and motivation or the way we use a correction- its not training technique specific.

We do obedience and agility with Cosmo atm and am getting her back into some scent detection, teaching her to do room searches etc. I think it depends on the dog as to how much you can do at once. When Cosmo was 8 weeks to 6 months old, she was doing scent detection, assistance dog exercises, basic no/ low impact agility and obedience (advanced) simultaneously. But just because she could do it, doesn't mean that my other dogs could have or future dogs will be able to. So it depends on the dog!

You need to determine why the problem is occurring before advice can be given as to how to fix it. Does the destruction only happen when your out? Possible separation anxiety?

CALB- have you considered getting a private trainer/ behaviourist with experience with such issues to assist you? It doesn't sound like the instructors at your club have the experience to effectively combat such a problem.