Cosmolo

I know there is a link between psychological characteristics of the parents and offspring- but why does it appear to be breed specific? Surely not every Weim breeder is breeding from anxious parents? Can anxiety be carried on a recessive gene? So it does not show in the parents but presents in the offspring? The last 5 Weims i have come across (2 of which were being used as sires) have all been anxious and all been from registered breeders with excellent parentage.

Interested in everyone's thoughts on this as i notice that certain breeds seem to be predisposed to anxiety, sometimes even when owners have done an excellent job. While i have seen anxiety across all breeds, there are certain breeds that appear to stand out as regularly presenting with some kind of anxiety. To give an example (and i am not breed bashing- i love the breed but it is an observation) I am yet to meet a Weimaraner without anxiety in some way shape or form, most often separation anxiety. Have other trainers noticed trends like this? Is there a glaringly obvious explanation which i am missing!?

Luka, i have sent you a private message regarding training for your pup.

Andy, just because a dog attacks chickens does NOT mean that a child will be next

You could try a scat mat from innotek www.innotek.com.au

Hooray, a Sunday one!! I will pm you kelpie i

We were informed that Bart would not make it back to Australia this year but would hopefully be coming out again (and maybe to Sydney and Melbourne, not just QLD) some time next year. It was the best seminar i have been to.

I know a few trainers that after doing delta courses changed the way they train completely. I am a convert the other way- from positive to balanced.

Everyone posted other things and my last post is way behind now..

I agree with HR in that our definition of fear is too narrow. That element of fear being referred to (correct me if i'm wrong HR) should also come with the knowledge in the dog that he can control the consequences/ outcomes through his behaviour. Because of this, the element of fear felt is not necesarily produced in the dogs body language (through slinking, submission etc) and in many cases can build a scared or frightened dogs confidence because they can reliably predict the consequences of their actions AND those consequences mean something to the dog. To me, a positive trainer is one that doesn't use physical aversives or negative reinforcement such as guiding a dog into position. One thing that puzzles me, given that stance is the willingness to use headcollars as an alternative My biggest problem with some positive trainers (note i said trainers, not training) is their apparent unwillingness to try alternatives often at the dogs expense. I have had a number of clients who were told that euthanasia was the only option for their dog because positive training had not worked to modify a behaviour problem. Some of these people had been told to be very wary of anyone who said they could modify the dogs behaviour, as their methods would be cruel and/ or inhumane. It leads me to wonder how many owners are euthanasing their dogs without seeking an alternative.

LP, i was just re reading the original post- do you really think that the dogs who have corrections in their training only work out of fear? What type of fear- of the correction or the handler? If a mother gives a pup a correction for mouthing too hard while playing for instance, does the pup not do it again because they are fearful of- the mother? the correction? Or because they want to keep playing and know that the hard mouth results in an undesirable consequence that ends it? Do you think dogs feel fear the same way we do? Or it is just avoidance of consequences the same way your dogs avoid not receiving the reward? Sorry, off on a little tangent..

Thats a great post Erny, sums it up nicely i think

LP- the answer to your question regarding why we don't train other animals that way is simple. The dolphins at seaworld do not have fish swimming in their pool. Their mental stimulation, food and attention all comes through their training which means that positive only training works well- not getting the fish/ or conditioned marker is a significant consequence. But pet dogs live with their families and get pats, food and toys at other times WITHOUT working, so it loses some of its critical importance. We also need to realise that all animals are different- i used much more negative reinforcement on horses than i do with a dog and less positive reward. The removal of the pressure in itself becomes a reward. As for why obedience isn't 'as rewarding'. It can and in many ways should be as rewarding. However obedience is meant to have a practical purpose and play a role in keeping the dog safe- while agility and tricks do not. If my dog doesn't wave when i ask, there are no life altering consequences so removal of a reward may be adequate. If the same dog ignores a recall and runs across a road- i no longer have a dog.. So the reliability of obedience IMO is more important than the reliability of a trick or agility obstacle. LP, in terms of what to use as a reward for unmotivated dogs, there are a few things that you can do- for example, if i devalue the very thing that makes the cow more rewarding than my toy by applying a correction at an appropriate time, the value of my toy increases. If using an e collar, the removal of low level stimulus can be the reward as well as a secondary reward that may then have a higher value. And thanks for the compliment/s re: my posts, its nice to know i am coherant, even with all the thoughts racing in my head!

Another one of these threads.. But if i didn't like them i would stay out of them so here goes ! To try to answer your questions Leo, in a succinct way- Firstly, i have extensive experience with horses, although they have been put on the back burner for dog exploits for now. Natural horsemanship works on the principal of negative reinforcment and levels/ phases- ie, i tap lightly, no response, increase to phase two (more pressure) etc etc till the response is gained. Horses, while some may be 'pack driven' as you put it are often kept away from a pack situation (not as punishment, just as way of keeping) and are trained to respond to their owner as a leader (thats the only similarity i see with dogs) Positive reinforcement for the horse is the removal of pressure and/ or a stroke/ pat/ verbal reward. But i never stopped mid show jumping round to give a carrot. As for the child/ maths example- if the child knew the maths well and wouldn't do it because they were running around the classroom, not giving a sticker (removal of positive reward) would probably not be effective. Not giving the sticker and a time out (because rulers are no longer used to correct children) is likely to be more effective. There is a big difference between this and a child who is trying to do the maths but doesn't understand it and gets it wrong because they're confused. I can't say i like the analogy much though.. I used to train in Perth using positive techniques- no physical or verbal corrections. I saw many dogs with serious issues that could not be practically trained using these techniques and as a result were either very difficult to manage, medicated or euthanased. So i am in fact, a convert TO using a combination of aversives and positive reward. For a few reasons- - i worked with a number of dogs who were difficult/ impossible to motivate using a treat or toy or praise- even if they would work for it before a meal, they would not do so afterwards. - There are many adult dogs with exisiting behaviour problems that, while they could have been trained positively if we were with them as puppies, cannot do so now. For example, the dog who has learnt that chasing stock is more rewarding than anything i can provide- the option to use a positive reward only is taken away- i have to devalue the other rewarding prospect too. - I believe that clear, well timed and appropriate level corrections can make things clear for both dogs and owners. There are many owners who will use a 'correction' regardless of being instructed not to- isn't it better that they know how to do it properly? For the dogs sake? - I also believe that corrections can build a dogs attitude and confidence. 6 months ago i had a dog join our family with serious fear based psychological issues- others had tried and failed and we were unsure as to what we would achieve. After much work- some corrections and plenty of positive reward- georgie, is a happy dog with mild- moderate issues that no longer impact her daily life. - Reliability in either older dogs with pre exisiting habits OR in dogs that are difficult to motivate through purely positive means - LP- the reason why corrections are not used generally in agility/ tricks etc, is because the dog you are working with is considered to be high drive so the removal of the reward is enough. When you are utilising drive, speed etc and doing exercises that are rewarding within themselves- positive training works very well. I use corrections because not every dog is like this AND many owners want to reduce drive, not increase it. (and yes of course i tell them the dog has to have an outlet etc etc) I wish very much that all of you had been able to attend a recent e collar seminar i went to with Bart Bellon on the Gold coast. Put a whole new spin on using an e collar and every dog that he demonstrated with improved their attitude/ confidence with the e collar- some had been positively trained, some had not. Some of the things he said were like revelations- and this is to someone who had been 'taught' how to use an e collar correctly- i was wrong and happy to admit it. And it is not that hard to wean off an e collar.

The problem i have with time outs is that they don't teach the dog how to behave in a given situation at the time and when the dog is presented with the same circumstance, they often repeat the behaviour and get another time out. My preference is to give some kind of correction where the dog remains with you and then teach them what to do in place of the unacceptable behaviour- giving you the opportunity to see if your correction was effective and the dog the opportunity for a reward. Faolmor- in my experience, the dogs do repeat the behaviour fairly readily after a time out- is it because the concept is inneffective or the timing etc is way off? I think its a difficult correction to use efficiently and prefer other techniques for the most part. I do agree though that the time out can be good for the owner to settle down as nothinng constructive will be achieved with an angry owner.

I would suggest it was the change in routine that upset her. Routine is not a good thing fro dogs as we can't adhere to it reliably enough and the dog can't explain why we are late/ at home etc. My dogs have no routine, no expectations and love it.

What about changing sports for a while? As PF suggested- agility exercises? What ahve your instructors/ people around you who have seen the dog suggested?

Poodle wrangler- i watched the first video and have a problem with a couple of things- Firstly he says that correction/ prong collars are not good because your correcting the dog when they're near you and they learn being near you is a dangerous place to be- i don't know about anyone else but if a dog is walking with me, i don't give a correction on any piece of equipment! No problem with the food lure but it is obvious to me that that dog has absolutely had training so i don't believe its necesarily realistic and practical to use that as an example. I also teach loose lead walking and heel as 2 separate exercises.

Agree with what you're saying LP but unfortunately, most people don't go through a process when starting with a headcollar- they put it on and try to 'train' straight away. I also think that headcollars are more difficult to get a dog to be accepting of once they are out of their critical period, in comparison to other equipment choices. Most dogs have worn something around their neck by the time they are 16 weeks so the act of putting a slip collar or correction chain on is not instantly aversive, whereas a dog who has never felt a headcollar, the very feeling is aversive. (NB. i am talking about the equipment being put on itself, not once training has begun) To the OP, its important that the instructor selects equipment to suit your dog and provides instruction on how to use it- a headcollar MAY be a good choice, but you haven't been given the right strategies to implement before you start training with it. Ask your instructor about the problem and then, if the answer is not satisfactory, you may want to seek a second opinion. Your dog needs to enjoy the training you do with him, regardless of what equipment is on him. And PF- totally agree with the comment about headcollars being the positive trainer's tool of choice- especially when often little instruction is given as to the ins and outs of them

You need to be vary careful about correcting a behaviour with a child that the dog considers to be a friendly interaction- even if we don't like it. Kirby needs some training on the how to's of interacting with a child, not just the no don't do that's. Putting him outside (while i understand may be necesray at times) won't curb the behaviour and is likely to see it escalate as you're never able to show him what to do.

To my knwledge there is no retail/ online outlet that sells them. Fibretek is also a 'made up' name and the material the leads are made from is sold in saddlery stores as strapping. We do make them and can arrange one for you if you would like, and post it to you.

Thanks for clarrification- i agree

Then why did you say "what if it were a child who didn't know the command"

I agree with what cavnrott has suggested in terms of teaching an out command or even a reliable drop in the presence of food. Once these are taught, then in some cases it MAY be appropriate to issue some kind of correction for non compliance to the command, regardless of whats in front of the dog. I never remove the bowl from my dogs while they're eating BUT i would be able to if the need was to arise. The correction if given needs to be about something other than the resource which is why teaching a command is very important. If the correction is about the resource you confirm in the dogs mind that it is of value and that they needed to be faster/ stronger to get it away from you or you away from it. I feed my dogs the same way PF does- no one is allowed to steal from another dog and i look after everything. I have seen a significant improvement in one of my dogs who is a resource guarder toward other dogs (re food) just through controlling interactions- as it has been directed at another dog, she has never received a correction from me- rather the other dog has been told by me that approaching another dogs bowl is not on- as a result the resource guarding dog leaves it to me to take care of the situation so she does not have to. In combination with any kind of training that involves the removal of an object OR asking the dog to stop eating- there must be a higher value reward than whats already in front of the dog. For example i might give my dogs their bowl, ask for a drop, dog stops eating, i add something of very high value and release the dog. You need to look at all facets of training an appropriate response- not just correcting the behaviour should it occur.

I second Poodlefan's comments- you can't diagnose and prescribe safely over the internet with agression.