Cosmolo

I think the statement might make logical sense but not practical sense- you can't dismiss the emotion involved. AND, if the owner has caused or contributed to the issues the dog currently has and doesn't educate themselves with that dog, what's to stop the next dog having behavioural issues as well? Where do you draw the line? To give another example, i once agisted with a girl who had a lovely horse who she did not ride properly. The horse developed a hard mouth and leant on the bit and she wanted to do dressage and eventing. She sold him on and got another horse without those problems. In 6 months the new horse had similar problems plus a few more! All because her skills/ knowledge/ management had not changed. As for the original topic- I have had 3 people i know euthanase dogs with aggression issues- While i wouldn't say untrainable, 2 of those dogs had serious, dangerous issues and an impaired ability for learning IMO ie, due to the nature of their issues (and the inability for any person, not just these owners, to practically control EVERY situation consistently) they learnt VERY slowly. Both dogs were ticking time bombs and it was only luck that had prevented serious injury up until this point. One dog was an ex shelter dog and one had been with the current owners since a pup. The third dog could have been trained but the owners in question (with young children in the home) were not the people to do it and another suitable home could not be found. They had a difficult decision to make and i for one, do not judge them for it. I don't think untrainable is a good word to use because in theory all dogs can be trained unless there is a physiological disfunction. Just because a dog is capable of learning/ being trained- that doesn't necesarily mean that it is practical or reasonable to do so. And this is where lies the grey area- what is reasonable and practical for one person will not be so for another.

Do you think its still the buzz word/ theory among clients though?

I tend to agree with Erny re the swing back toward balanced training. I wonder if it is area specific as well though? I know for instance that 90% of the trainers in perth are 'positive trainers'. Melbourne seems to be 50/50? 5 years ago positive reinforcment seemed to be the buzz word of the decade. I'm not convinced its the same now though.

Sorry, i think i have confused everyone. Thats what happens when your posting on DOL as you are rushing out the door Georgie the dog in question has improved significantly since we have had her. What i think is that before we got her, when others were trying to 'desensitise' her, they didn't realise that flooding was in fact taking place and, when they removed her still displaying significant fear responses, they sensitised her to the stimulus. When we got her, i am suggesting that due to the high levels of fear experienced, flooding was our only option, as there was no distance great enough that would significantly decrease her fear without also lessening or eliminating her awareness of the stimulus. Also because critical distance was breached so regularly in the home, flooding was taking place even though it was not our deliberate intention. We did, however recognise that flooding was occurring and behave appropriately to ensure we too, did not continue the sensitisation process. Does that make more sense? Sorry in advance if its not, its late and been a long day!

Thats what i thought- thanks kelpie i. Do you agree that if its not recognised that this is mild flooding that his can cause problems if the dog is removed too early? That is what i was trying to get at in my post and what i believe happened to my girl before we got her.

I see what you're saying Erny and totally agree with the traditional meaning of flooding, but what if the distance that the dog was able to keep was not great enough to reduce the fear, even in part? Flooding or desensitisation? Sorry for going OT

I don't mind some of what Caesar suggests- calm assertive energy and confidence is very important. There are a few things i have an issue with though- - the lack of praise and/ or secondary reward. Caesar only uses a primary reward of releasing pressure, in whatever form it takes. For example, release of tension on a collar of some kind, moving away when a dog is calm/ obedient, allowing a dog up from an alpha roll etc. I have NEVER seen him use any toys, treats, markers, excited verbal praise etc. I do use punishment but believe caesar's way is (from what we see at least) somewhat out of balance. - I watched an episode the other day where he got bitten alpha rolling an ex shelter dog who was involved in a prison rehab program. The dog had issues with things like nail clipping. He suggested the dog should be on their side for nail clipping. After the bite and the struggle, he only then explained that you could muzzle the dog. Why not muzzle for an infrequent event where it was clear that novices would be handling the dog? I don't see the point in getting bitten? - I don't like the way he walks dogs although given the amount of exercise his dogs get, its probably fine. But i don't think i have too many clients who would be able to provide hours of off property exercise every day so when they do, they try to stimulate the dog more than just holding the dog in one position. Just further to flooding- i have found since my experiences with one of our dogs who we only got 6 months ago that some people/ trainers included, don't seem to understand when flooding is occurring, even when we don't want it to. For example, my dogs fear response came about as soon as she was aware of the stimulus regardless of distance. Critical distance (which is around where we work for desensitisation) was huge AND being breached many many times within a day due to her living in a house with a male present. (my OH) We had to recognise that aspects of her life were flooding and behave accordingly, ie, follow through with the process. If we had not done so we could have further sensitised her, as people had done in the past. ETA- Erny, you will have to come over, see our house and dogs, catch up and i will record some Caesar episodes for us to watch over lunch!

Remember that the intro session for ADT is just that- an intro session, so not alot of training happens on that day. It is an introduction to the organisation, how its run, assessment of your dog, costs etc.

When i worked at an animal shelter, we used to put half a syringe (that is just a large cylinder) around the tail before bandaging. As long as you bandaged properly it worked well for fast healing as it protected the tail, allowed some air flow and no irritation from bandaging. What are you bandaging with at the moment?

Just one thing i would like to add re: the rehoming of dogs not suited to their owners. Who do you propose these dogs are rehomed to? Adult dogs with behaviour problems are not the most popular dog for rehoming and even if a home could be found, the chances of finding a home capable of dealing with the problems effectively are not that high. I would much rather use an appropriate tool to stop a problem behaviour and save that dog the stress of either being rehomed or being euthanased when that suitable home cannot be found..

Agree with Erny. What did your OH and family say when the dog bit you?

Quality of instruction and results- more often than not i am on the other end, the trainer not the client and 90% of my clients want results. Very few are there for social interaction with others. My job is to make sure their expectations are reasonable and determine the best way to go about it for them and their dog. If we can be friends, (and the clients can be friends) have a laugh and a great time as well- thats fantastic- but thats not the clients first priority (the majority of the time) so its not mine either. Fortunately my clients seem to enjoy the training, each other and my 'manner' as well so they have the best of both worlds, but the results they are after and the dogs capabilities remain at the forefront of my mind. Hope thats sort of what you were asking and not OT!

I guess it depends what you mean by results? Are we talking competition results, 'wins' with your own dogs or just generally doing well and progressing?

Agree with kelpie i- although you have to look and ask questions, there are many puppy pre schools that are run by behaviour specialists or behavioural trainers. I don't know why they would claiam to be the only one? Ask lots of questions and se if you can go down and see how a puppy class is run/ meet the instructor. I would highly recommend Four Paws though, and it allows you to do any further training with them as well.

You are dealing with predatory drive- which is a fairly simple concept. Introduce some kind of correction- such as an electric fence/ hot wire that will counter the drive and you may resolve that issue. This should be done in conjunction with training and stimulation- what is the dog receiving now? No need to complicate it by suggesting that the dog has been 'blooded' and fear for your child and other dog. Recognise that dogs are predatory animals and that chickens, rabbits, possums etc can become prey objects. You need to actively teach the dog what is a prey object and what is not and if you're not in a position to do this, then rehoming may be the best option.

Do you know who they are qualified with?

What about Four Paws? We run one in Sth Melbourne but that mght be a bit far.

All puppy pre schools are definitely not the same- its important that you check who is running the school, their qualifications and/ or experience as well as maximum/ minimum numbers in a class and how the classes are run. Are the pups always off lead? Always on lead? Ask if you can watch the way the class is run before enrolling. Is the instructor a dog trainer, vet nurse or sometimes both? I would go with the dog trainer or both every time. I run puppy school at a petstock and at a few vets- petstocks are a franchise so the puppy schools will be run by different groups/ trainers.

What did the instructor say?

She didn't actually move any of her feet, but rocked back into a bow. My OH was handling so i had a perfect view of what she did. Yes it is the same club Rom. I just want to know for next time more than anything else.

I was having a read through the obedience rule book today and was reading through CCD exercises and what results in disqualification, minor deductions etc. Was a passenger in a car and bored so read through rules for fun.. sad huh! In the stand for exam it says that disqualification occurs for a dog who attacks, deductions for things like moving feet, needing a second command etc. We were DQ'd at our members trial the other week- for our stand for exam- and am a bit confused after reading the rules today s to why were were DQ'd as she most certainly did not attack or try to Is my rule book old (only got it last year) or wrong? Or does it mean we got penalised for something else?

I would get in touch with Four Paws as well for training- you can pm kelpie i who is on this forum.

What has the puppy class instructor said? Are they qualified/ experienced trainers? You need to speak to a professional about the pups issues soon, as well as the breeder.

You need to get professional help as soon as possible. This is not something that should be resolved via an internet forum. Perhaps if you let us know your approximate location, we can recommend a good behaviourist in your area. How did it happen that he got attacked at dog school??

We will do one asap- i promise!! Too much to do with two few hours in the day