Cosmolo

Lp- you do make me laugh Let me take the first example you gave with the dog not dropping or dropping slowly. I think i know the look you are referring to and GENERALLY speaking the first time that occurred, i would guide or lure instead of correct, and reward. I might do this a number of times if the dog is in teaching phase. At some point, when i believe that the dog has an idea of what i want but is waiting for the guide/ lure- i might introduce some kind of consequence. When the dog does the exercise by themselves without assistance no matter how slow- i usually jackpot and repeat immediately to build confidence and speed. The other examples you have given i think are all handler error rather than sensitivity- the second example, it would seem to me that for a known behaviour to extinguish that quickly, the dog hasn't been doing it for long enough and received enough rewards to then not receive some kind of reward for the behaviour and expect to have it maintained. OR, the differences in the rewards are not significant enough and the successive approximation process is unclear or misunderstood by the dog. And the third example if the dog was that confused, the exercise should be easier to start (where they do comply)and gradually made harder. I don't think the above dogs are necesarily sensitive though- just confused about an exercise and perhaps going from teaching to training phase. Sensitivity would occur IMO if i did not follow through with the dog and left the dog confused. The next time i go to get the dog for training i would expect less effort and more confusion and hesitation as thats how that exercise finished last session. Thats not sensitivity- thats bad training. Handler error could be anything from giving a poor signal to not making consequences clear enough- regardless of whether you train with compulsion or not. This thread has the potential to be a jumbled mess of confused posts... !!!

There are many different ways to teach a retrieve. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'. The best one for a dog is one that minimises confusion and resitance in the dog- whether that be done with a clicker or some kind of gentle physical pressure. if i was to do a forced retrieve, the biggest difference would be that i wouldn't be waiting for offering of the behaviour, rather guiding the dog into doing it BUT still marking and rewarding the desired response. While i am certainly not suggesting this for Brock (having not seen him) i saw a wonderful way to teach a hold/ retrieve using an e collar- it is one more thing in my tool box that i would use if appropriate to the dog and situation.

A dog can display weak nerves in a training sense though- IMO, there doesn't always have to be an external stimulus. If you wanted to get technical, the external stimulus is you/ the handler and the training anyway. I think that if the dog has been training for a reasonable period of time and has learnt how to learn, crumbling under pressure is, more often than not, handler error. 2 of my dogs would be what you might call sensitive- but they don't crumble under pressure in training unless there is a training error on my part. As for the question in your first post- what equates a clear definition? That absoultely depends on the dog- what makes it clear to one dog, will not necesarily do so for another. I am still a little confused about what you're asking for though! Maybe its just me

I am a little confused by what you mean LP Are you talking sensitivity to training as in the responsiveness of a dog? Or sensitive as in weak nerves where the dog crumbles under any kind of pressure? Are you suggesting that giving a correction to either of the above dogs is counter productive? What about the dog like Jules P's dog who crumbles even in the absence of a correction?

I would be trying to work out why she has a negative association before changing it so that you don't then accidentally build a new negative association with a different piece of equipment. What does she do if you get the lead out without the chain?

Pinnacle- one of my female dogs is not the leader, but to the unknowing or uneducated eye, she could appear to be as she does the most out of any of the dogs in terms of discipline, obvious posturing, gaining resources etc. But i'm pretty sure the male is top dog.

I'm with Erny- starting to feel so unloved!! Interesting thread jesomil!

Congrats on your new pup!! I would suggest contacting Erny from this forum as she is out your way and can point you in the right direction- with any training not just with puppy training. We run puppy schools but they would be about a 35 minute drive from you.

Here are my thoughts- Pack structure is fluid, not stagnant and can change depending on the value of the resource/ issue in question (if there is one) to the individual dog. Although i question whether we should be using control of resources to determine pack position. We have 4 dogs, who are virtually divided into two pairs- the 2 older dogs who are at the top of the pack and the two younger dogs at the bottom. As for splitting them up further than that- this is where it becomes a grey area. Of the two older dogs, if i had to choose, the male would be alpha of the pack purely because of the way he goes about asserting his position- quietly, calmly with very little body language/ posturing required for the other 3 bitches to move/ back down etc. The older bitch tends to have to assert herself a little more, with more in the way of obvious teeth displays, growls etc to the younger bitches if required. The dog is virtually silent in his pursuits. However, if we look at individual resources- the bitch always wins any kind of toy, while i watched the dog move her from a bed last week with a simple step and look. I think its important to not just look at the what a dog wants/ gets when determining pack structure- but HOW they go about getting it. Otherwise we bring different resource values into play which will not only vary from dog to dog but also from time to time. eg. on monday dog 1 is very hungry so pursues food more than usual. As far as my two younger girls go- i couldn't split them if you asked me to. I run 3 bitches and a dog together with and without supervision with no problems. I believe that it can be very hazardous to start trying to choose or dictate who is top dog in a pack. (Of course great leadership from the human component is crucial) If you get it wrong because you're talking more about resources rather than behaviour- you can cause alot of disharmony So resources and behaviour are two different things, i think sometime we get too caught up just looking at the control of the resources themselves rather than the behaviours associated with it. Hope that makes sense

Where i train they usually have it at 500 as most of the dogs there are that height or bigger. They only change it if there are the really small dogs there but no consideration for cleaness of the dogs etc.

Unfortunately this is not a problem i would consider giving internet advice for, given whats at stake. I would recommend you see a professional, if you can give your approx area, i'm sure there will be someone DOLers could recommend.

Our rescue dog had no interest in toys to start- but now loves them and pulls all of them out of the toy box at once Give it some time and experiment, put food in toys, move the toys on a string to make them seem interesting, try different types of toys etc. Does your other dog play with toys?

If you were just another person training your dog, would you say anything? Especially seeing as the people in charge don't seem to mind?

Has anyone else seen overweight dogs competing and/ or training for dog sports? What are your thoughts on the role the training clubs/ groups etc should take in policing this sort of thing? I saw an overweight dog doing a very active sport recently and cringed at the thought of the damage to the dogs joints etc. Who should step in to say something? If anyone? Are you very conscious of your dogs weights/ fitness?

Given the turn a different topic has taken, i think this would be a good opportunity for everyone to voice their opinions about the different types of training available. This is not about methods, just the advantages and disadvantages of the above 2 types of training. Here are my thoughts to kick it off- Private Training Advantages * Tailored techniques can be taught * Tailored content specific to owner and their problems * Pace and style can be adjusted for dog and owner * Flexibility in terms of days and times * Clear assessment and discussion of expectations/ needs etc * Dog and owner often learn more quickly due to lower levels of distraction * Training is relevant to the environment the dog spends the majority of time in * Controlled environment for aggressive dogs- not as many variables and breaching of critical distance Private Training Disadvantages * More expensive for owners * Lack of socialisation and distraction training (although i think this is a perception held by some that can be rectified in some circumstances by trainng in busier environments or using trainers dogs etc) Group Class Advantages * Socialisation and Training in distracting environments * Most economical way to train * Access to a number of trainers with different ideas/ knowledge bases (note the similar point in disadvantages) * Social for owner and way to meet other like minded people * Can be fun fast paced environment Group Class Disadvantages * Set times and days make it difficult for some busy people to attend * Confusion can arise if different trainers provide different advice from week to week * Critical distance is more likely to be breached for a reactive/ aggressive dog * Dogs can become 'ground smart' where they behave one way at training and another at home * Class content has to be more general than specific * Will sometimes have dogs of varying levels/ new dogs each week What do you think? What have your experiences been with both types of training? Interested in hearing from both sides of the coin- trainers and clients/ owners. I like a combination of both types, starting with private training as i feel it yields the best results.

As with any large training group, what is taught will vary depending on who is taking the class and where. As for compulsion as a preferred technique, this needs to be explained to people as to why is can be adantageous to do things a certain way with their particular dog. I do both luring, drive training and guide show and place (compulsion) depending on the exercise and puppy/ dog in question. I always teach G/S/P in puppy classes as part of manual handling and getting the dog used to being manipulated into different positions. Its not rough or horrible, its a gentle guide. I disagree with something like foot on lead being a 'last resort' after all other methods have failed because i believe a trainer should be able to assess what method would best suit the dog from the beginning, not just try random exercises until one works. What others need to understand as well is that within a large class, its difficult to tailor techniques to puppies/ dogs and people. Try taking a class with 5 dogs on correction chains, 3 on headcollars, 4 on flat collars- 2 with clickers etc etc. This is why i like clients to do private training or a puppy school before they do one of my group classes so that we have already gone through what works best for their dog and i don't have to cover that with 10 different dogs in 50 minutes!!

I disagree with rugerfly- many dogs do not grow out ofit as they believe that the behaviour is what keeps them safe. Does she go to training at all?

Southern also frown upon food use once the dogs get out of puppy classes. I do agility there only (not obedience) and use lots of food and toys- you just need to be prepared to say what you want to do and how you want to train. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have an open mind though- look at the other dogs that are training where you attend- are they generally happy to be there? All training involves a degree of stress, but it is how that stress and confusion is worked through that is important. The dogs should finish happy

LP, my dogs couldn't care less about the lead because leads are picked up so frequently around our house that they rarely mean very much. I have recently noticed a little bit of interest in two of the dogs though, when i clip my treat pouch- not because they think they're going for a alk or gettinga treat, but more that thats a good sign i'm going to see clients and two of them usually accompany me in the car!

Given that you have a rescue dog, you might want to consider a one on one session before you go off to group classes as they can be a little overwhelming to begin with. He can definitely learn the things you want him to- its just determining whats the best technique to teach him and you. This is where private training can help tremendously before dealing with the distraction levels of a group class. As for being a rescue dog, we work alot with ex shelter dogs and LOVE them to bits, don't think you won't be able to train him or that you'll be looked down upon- we consider you to be extra special!!

Tapferhund- what about a behavioural trainer who also has many years of successful practical experience??

We have similar experience to you Erny, in that we have not needed to refer on unless there is a belief that a medical problem may be underlying in which case i actually prefer (in most cases) for the dog to see their own vet. I have discussed the possibility of medication at a later point with a few clients but in all of those cases it turned out that it was not required as we progressed with the training. You all make some very good points. Working dog lover, i also know someone who was given incorrect information and drug therapy for a problem that could have resulted in euthanasia from a very well known veterinary behaviourist. Mis diagnosis and wrong advice is certainly not exclusive to trainers- a veterinary behaviorist can still make an error as anyone can.

I understand that a veterinary behaviourist is highly qualified- but are their qualifications 'higher' than a behavioural trainer or just different? I totally agree that any behaviourist should know when they're out of their depth, but am interested in why referral to a veterinary behaviourist would occur over perhaps a more experienced (than the person doing the onward referral) behavioural trainer? (this is assuming similar experience levels etc) Is it primarily because of the ability of the veterinary behaviorist to dispense medication?

The title pretty much says it all- i'm very interested in getting some different perspectives on this question. What are the advantages and disadvantages of choosing a veterinary behaviourist? What are the advantages and disadvantages of seeing a Behavioural trainer? (who has completed the NDTF behaviourists course for example or equivalent experience) I am asking in the context of more serious behavioural problems such as anxiety, aggression, OCD etc. All opinions welcome

Thanks for agreeing LP To give another example, our latest dog (who's story is in treating fear/ anxiety) we chose to take on knowing she had massive issues and that this was her last shot. We didn't have an emotional attachment at the time but chose to take her anyway as we truly believed we could help her. People had created her problems and we happened to be people who were there, in the right place at the right time, in a position to help her. I think it would have been remiss of us, given the skills and knowledge sets we had and desire to have another dog, not to take her- but that doesn't mean she would have been suitable for any other available homes- she got lucky, and so did we.