Cosmolo

Do not expect him to grow out of it!! There are many adult dogs who are mouthy as they wee not taught not to when puppies. Are you going to a puppy school? Some techniques are best demonstrated than explained. Be careful about giving a toy when he mouths as many dogs perceive that as a reward. There was a good topic in general a few weeks ago about 'controlled biting a training minefield'- i think thats what it was called. Have a read through that thread- i would post the link here but not sure how :rolleyes:

So showdog do you believe that every time a dog exhibits a bad behaviour, they do so because they believe they are higher in rank? Not every dog is rank driven. While you can't remve prey drive you can teach the dog when to exhibit the drive and when not to. Using the can, as with any other effective correction allows the owner to get the dog to stop doing a bad behaviour so that they can then reward more frequently for the good behaviours! Deltron- i don't think there is a problem with it (and i have used it before with some dogs) provided you balance it with lots of rewards and be very matter of fact about the correction- no emotion from you, no verbals etc. Does the dog know its from you? Maybe. Does the dog respect the can? Maybe. But if you can use it to get good behaviours out of the dog, it allows you to spend more time rewarding than if you were to just ignore and wait for the right behaviour (which is often not possible when the dog is mouthing and it is painful!)

For the money that you would be paying you would probably be better off investing in some one on one sessions. The training prices look good- until you read that you have to pay for the boarding on top of it! We do boarding and training in Melbourne and it can be a great tool. Maybe see if you can have a private session with the trainer first so you now if they click with you and the dog and if the training methods are suited. Worthwhile before making such a big investment

We do service that area as well

No. Its not just the dogs lack of socialisation to outside stimulus that would bother me. I firmly believe that if you socialise the dog to training and how to learn during its critical period, teaching new exercises is MUCH easier for the rest of the dogs life. Has the pup had any training?

Just one other thing to add- we do hope to trial Georgie in agility, perhaps this is an alternate path you could consider for your dog? Clarity is key when training any dog but particularly a fearful dog. Not to say it would be appropriate for your dog but we do use a correction chain on georgie and her confidence has improved in leaps and bounds.

I have dealt with a rearing horse or two- one was particularly bad after being confined for 3 months after an injury- and he was a silly thoroughbred to start with! Did a couple of things- stallion bit to manage the behaviour short term and 'natural horsemanship'/ negative reinforcement with a knotted professionally made rope halter (not a $15 from horseland) long rope line (not flappy lunge lead) a 'carrot stick' AND professional assistance as it was a very dangerous situation to begin with. The carrot stick was invaluable- allowed me to keep some distance between me and the horses shoulder and apply relevant pressures easily. Taught the horse how to give to pressure in every respect and with forehand and hindquarter movements, sideways, forwards, backwards- all on the ground to start but then comes in very handy under saddle.

I have a dog who started with extreme fear (panic bolting etc whenever there was a person around) who now has excellent obedience but i don't believe would cope with a trial simply because of the stand for exam. Teaching stand would be hard enough, let alone having a stranger approach, especially if it was a man. Its a real shame because the rest of her obedience is wonderful and she enjoys working so much- but she will never trial ;) She has excellent stays and recalls and her heeling is bouncy and lovely- but a stand/ stand for exam would be so hard for her, she trusts me to 'look after her' and i couldn't do that properly in a trial ring. She also defaults to a drop when unsure- which is way better than bolting- but not so good for a trial! She is an extreme case though- so its hard to say without seeing your dog.

Are you attending a well run puppy pre school at this stage? That could help with the training and confidence side of things. I would NOT be using a gentle leader on her though- get her used to a normal collar and lead first. Its normal for pups to have poor bladder control- bladder control comes with age AND is learned- not one or the other- and a crate is the easiest and qiockest way to do this. Have a search for crate training- there should be lots of threads. What dry and wet food are you feeding? Is it normal milk or puppy milk? What breed is your puppy?

I recently went to a herding workshop with my youngest girl who had never worked sheep before but had done extensive obedience, agility and scent detection training. She had no problems switching on and i don't think doing obedience in conjunction with herding would be a problem. In many cases doing one will help the other either way. The herding was heaps of fun- although i never realised how un co ordinated i was until we did it!!

Glen Eira Vet in Ormond are excellent. I also have clients who are happy with South Rd Animal Health too.

How much time does she spend outside when people are home? Is she always inside with your mum and dad?

I couldn't agree more Poodlefan. I've seen dogs whose anxiety and/ or aggression has increased dramatically with the use of a headcollar. Doesn't mean its a bad tool but does need to be used with caution. I just wish that it got the same attention as an e collar- which has given 2 of my own dogs and many of my clients a dramatic improvement in their quality of life.

I agree daccies, but that principle is far from exclusive to e collars. I see headcollars cause many problems as well and yet, they don't appear to come under the same scrutiny as an e collar.

I read through most of your post pdts and while i think there were some good points, it just poses more questions. There is no information on the dogs in question that were used, their prior learning and experience etc. It also interests me that the concept of loading was not mentioned, especially when it was being suggested that some behaviour problems increase with the use of punishment? Sounds like loading to me, inneffective corrections being given which do serve to load the dog and make the problem worse. There is no specific information on levels the collars were used at, what collars were used and the timing of the handler is not known. I have used an e collar on one of my own dogs- an extremely fearful female- and the clarity of the e collar actually helped in building her confidence as well as us allowing her off lead which in turn built her confidence again. She certainly does not walk down the street exhibiting some of the behaviours mentioned in this study- i would question whether it was the e collar itself that caused these problems, sounds more likely that the dog has received poorly timed, and therefore bond diminishing corrections (e collar or otherwise) and is now experiencing learned helplessness. I would love to see comparison of stress levels to other training equipment- headcollars in particular- the change in stress levels from when the equipment is fitted, when it is being actioned, and after the dog has learnt the exercise- what the stess level is then. I believe there is stress in any learning, regardless of method- recovery time and stress oce dog clearly understands exercise is very important to me. I think what makes this subject so difficult is that many people who have used an e collar have seen very good results. So the study is viewed with some skepticism or at least poses many more questions that can never be answered. E collars are not for everyone and my clients never handle the remote until i am convinced that the dog understands the concepts AND the handler has excellent timing. I agree that they are not for the novice handler. But then neither is other types of equipment.

I would be looking at going to Four Paws. Kelpie-i is on this forum and runs Four Paws so you could get in touch with her. Have a look at fourpawsk9training.com.au

PW- i totally disagree that puppy schools are over priced compared to what you get at an obedience club. (this is assuming you attend a puppy school with a qualified professional) My puppy schools work out to be around $20 a 1 hour session over 4 weeks. Tell me what other profession exists where you can get a trained professional for that fee? Not only do i spend the hour to 1/ 1/2 hours in class (the classes go for an hour but i stay back and speak with owners for anywhere between 15 minutes and 40 minutes every week) but i also provide email and phone support at no charge, not to mention travelling to and from a class. You are talking about the people who are handling the most important formative part of your dogs life- their critical period. Its a small fee to pay for a lifetime of rewards and a well balanced dog. I agree that some puppy schools are badly run and result in a pup with issues. I also believe there are many obedience schools that are badly run and can ruin a dog just as easily. Its very frustrating to hear people run down all puppy schools and send them off to their local 'cheap' obedience school. Do people choose the cheapest school for their children or their own education? Maybe they do sometimes- but they at least check what the quality of that education will be. Choosing a puppy school or obedience club should not just be about price- what about knowledge, experience, qualifications, service??? I'm not suggesting price isn't a consideration- but it should be one of many.

I disagree with showdogs assertion that all puppy schools 'throw the pups in together'- a well run puppy school run by a qualified trainer should do no such thing and i have many puppies happily graduating puppy schools every month- some of whom started as nervous wrecks! I would actually suggest speaking with a professional (perhaps the trainer who took your puppy school if you were happy with them, their methods etc or a trainer that a DOLer might be able to recommend depending on your location) about how to safely socilisae your puppy further. Yes it can help to increase your dogs confidence but its vital that it is done correctly. Going anywhere where there are lots of dogs bouncing around may not be the ideal next step for your puppy. If you go to group obedience straight away, make sure it is well structured, preferably with a socialisation program, organised and under control. I have seen many free for alls at obedience clubs as well as puppy classes and that can be damaging to a timid pup.

It also depends on the drive of your dog and how you stimulate them otherwise. I have a couple of dogs with high prey drivs and if i didn't play tug, i believe i would have alot of problems as there would be no outlet for their drive. I certainly don't have any problems with stealing/ nipping etc, even when there are children around. This old theory of it creating dominance is exactly that- an old theory. The only time i would not play tug is if the dog had some dominance/ leadership issues already.

Fingers crossed for good weather for us.. although i'm sure the people care about it more than the dogs! Cosmo won't mind running around in the rain- but i'll be the silly one that falls over in the mud!!

Where are you sending the dog?

Given that he is experiencing problems with dogs, i do think it would be good for him to be assessed in a very controlled way with perhaps one or two calm, placid dogs before surrounding him with dogs in a group class. Whereabouts are you located?

Agree with what the others have said but would also suggest perhaps starting with a private lesson or two first before going into an obedience class. Choose your obedience classes carefully as well and make sure that the instructors have the experience and knowledge to deal with such issues.

An aloof dog is not one i would describe as necesarily sensitive in the way the OP means. I would be interested in LP's and Jules responses to my last post.

Here are some further questions to ponder.. What is sensitivity in a dog? Does it mean that: they have weak nerves? they didn't receive good socialisation to training during their critical period? someone at some point has sensitised them to training by accident? (it would therefore not necesarily be the natural temperament of the dog) they don't have strong drives so they are too easy to 'knock out' of drive and appear sensitive? A few posters talk about appeasement behaviour occurring in their 'sensitive' dogs. Is this the dog themselves or is this what they have learned will work to not get them into trouble? Are dogs naturally sensitive? Or do we teach them that certain behaviours (that we think are sensitive) work to get what they want? Sensitivity to a correction varies from dog to dog but can also be taught to any dog. The dog who is strctly hands off for training- is that sensitive or a lack of manual handling/ socialisation to handling and touch? I think sensitive is a human description that is too broad. Weak nerves would describe many dogs who we might think are sensitive.