Cosmolo

I would strongly suggest you talk to Four Paws K9 Training (kelpie i on this forum) and i'm sure they will be able to help you. We do work west of Melbourne as well but it does depend on the area

Fifi- i'm so sorry Its horrible when you lose them before their time

Please don't rely on puppy growing out of it- it is a more difficult problem to fix when the dog has been practicing it for a longer period of time. Are you going to puppy school? Consider a one on one session to show you practically how to fix the problem- it is hard to guess your way through- particularly with mouthing. Its something i feel very stongly about as i have seen cases where it moves from mouthing to biting and the behaviour goes from annoying to dangerous

IMO- Yes. The leaning occurs in between play bows, furious tail wagging and crazy runs. The rest of the body language still looks happy/ excited when she is leaning on the crate, even when the pup paws at her. The body language may change completely if the other dog was not crated though.

Looks like she wants to play to me!

Unfortunately, not all dogs grow out of mouthing! I see lots of adult dogs who are still doing it- some who mouth extremely hard as adults and do damage

"The least aversive method is the time out" Anthony- i have to disagree here as it absolutely depends on the dog in question- there are many dogs who would find a time out far more aversive than other types of correction. Not saying it shouldn't be used- but i don't consider it to be the least aversive method in many cases. The other thing that can happen when using a time out (depending on the owner of course!) is that the puppy doesn't learn what to do instead and becomes more frustrated. The clicker training idea is nota bad one-depending on the owners timing. Need to make sure the dog doesn't learn to mouth and stop to get the click and reward though! Would need to have some pretty strong gloves on though and make sure the puppy doesn't try to do this with the children- asking children to be still and silent while a puppy mouths is extremely difficult. A puppy mouthing does not always mean the owners leadership is inadequate although it can never hurt to re think your leadership status. I strongly believe that dogs do not need to mouth people to learn bite inhibition and that much of this learning is done with their mother, littermates and other dogs/ pups early on. One more thing with regards to corrections if you choose to use them- NEVER should they be used in anger or be accompanied by yelling etc. A correction should be delivered calmly and quickly with the owner able to reward the good behaviour that follows a few minutes later- not still thinking about what the pup did before!

I am one who does correct for mouthing simply because i think its vital that puppies are taught as early as possible that putting their mouth around a person is a no go. While mouthing is developmental and dogs need to learn bite inhibition- many dogs continue with the behaviour after the developmental phase has finished because thy have learned that it is fun. You will not diminsh your bond with your puppy by giving corrections IF- - Your puppy understands what the correction is for - your puppy understands how to avoid the correction and you teach alternate behaviours - you catch the puppy doing good behaviours and heavily reward him/ her at these times- life needs to not just be about corrections! You must have good timing and determine the level of and type of correction that is appropriate as it varies from puppy to puppy. For this reason it would be advantageous to have a trainer show you the best way to resolve the behaviour- particularly given their are children involved. Are you going to puppy pre school?

I find that quite absurd.. And i am also curious about the balance of dry foods- if i feed my dog less of the recommended quantity of a dry food (because they put weight on easily) doesn't that mean they get less of the vitamins and minerals they need? So the diet is not balanced and complete anyway? My dogs have never been healthier or happier than on a raw diet so i will continue to feed them in this way

He goes once a week for underwater treadmill and swimming and another time just for swimming. He is also on ester c, glucosamine, cartophen and fish oil and has stretches and massage daily.

Thanks Erny- the hydrotherapy has already shown good improvements. (Sorry for going OT in my own thread!!)

I figured as much but i haven't seen that behaviour before from my dogs with anything else! Suppose i've never used a headcollar on them either though. Erny, i need to be able to control his head a little better to slow/ settle him for some of his hydrotherapy/ rehab for his hip dysplasia. I want to try a few different types of equipment to see what will suit best, hence the desnsitising to the feeling of the headcollar.

I have been putting a headcollar on my youngest dog as i may need to be able to use one for certain things with him. We have just been habituating him to it, feeding him treats, letting him lie down with it on etc andi have noticed something interesting. While he does not seem worried- even happy to lie down and go to sleep while wearing the headcollar- all 3 of my other dogs have tried to take the headcollar off Dexter- using their paws, licking at it etc. While we stop them from doing this straight away, i do find it very interesting and was wondering if anyone else had seen behaviour like this with any piece of equipment? Dexter is not stressed at all and is actually the best dog i have ever put a headcollar on as he doesn't seem to be bothered by it at all after a few short sessions.

If you were told something negative about another trainer/ club- how would you respond? Would you contact the trainer? Go to their affiliates- vet clinics that recommend them etc? I must say, i am told things frequently about prior training that has been attempted and i don't do anything (except assist the dog in front of me) as i will never know exactly whats gone on (what someone says happened and what actually happened can be two different things) and also because of client confidentiality. But a recent conversation with another trainer has highlighted to me that not everyone thinks this way so i am curious as to everyones thoughts. As clients, do you expect a second club/ trainer to 'do' anything about your reports with regards to a negative experience with a first trainer/ club?

Thats why i said (a number of times) my preference would be extinction training. But given the choice between being relegated/ isolated to a garage at 8 1/2 weeks and having a small lead correction- i know what i would choose. Neither option is preferable! But if extinction training is not an option (and its not for some people) other options have to be looked at as inconsistent extinction training would not be a good thing. ETA Maybe i'm not being clear- i apologise, i'm having a really bad day

The only other thing you can do- which is not my preference at all with a puppy- is have a lead coming out of the crate and give a small lead correction. Extinction training (ignoring) is a better option as it teaches the puppy that that behaviour gets no result. If you do it right- they will get worse before they get better for a few nights (barking etc) and then settle quicker and quicker each time if you're consistent.

If your hubby reaches in while she is crying, she will do it more so as she will think she ie being rewarded and thats how to get your attention. I would ignore her while she is crying- reward when she is quiet. It may mean a few sleepless nights but if you are 100% consistent, it will rapidly improve.

Umm.. Ear plugs? If anyone has a solution i'd love to hear it as Dexter snores and snorts really loud- sometimes even when he's awake! I am a heavy sleeper so it doesn't bother me but i know it does my OH

What are you doing to socialise, stimulate and train him now?

I would definitely not put a collar on a 10 week old puppy. I am a little confused- do you go to him at all when he is crying/ barking? When you are giving him attention in the play pen (to make it his happy place) what is his demeanour like? Can you put his crate in the pen when you leave? Have you ignored him until he has stopped crying/ barking? At 10 weeks he won't be able to hold out forever. Does he spend time in the pen when you are there but in another room? What interactive toys does he have? When he is crying when you are there, you can try to give him a correction but my preference with puppies generally is consistent extinction training which is very hard to start with but 9 times out of 10 rapidly and reliably improves the dogs behaviour in this sort of situation.

For anyone in Canberra and surrounds (or willing to drive!) i am just about to post the flyers for our trip to Canberra in the rescue forum. Please let me know if you have any questions- will be checking and updating the thread regularly between now and the trip.

goldengirl, i would strongly suggest that you get an experienced behaviourist in to properly assess the situation. I see many cases of inter dog aggression where it has started for one reason (a bone for example) but is then ongoing even without the initial cause still being present. It is much more difficult to resolve if the dogs have been practicing any aggressive behaviour/ fighting for a period of time before seeking help and so much easier if nipped in the bud straight away. How to do that effectively will depend on the dogs, owners and the living situation.

Pet dogs should be taught that they should never put their mouth around a person- ever. Bite inhibition can be learned on things other than people, including playing with other puppies and IMO the greatest learning phase for bite inhibition is already over by the time you get your puppy. I have adult dogs with extremely soft mouths who were taught not to put their teeth on people but have excellent soft mouths when playing with dogs etc. There is no reason to teach a puppy to 'mouth soft' ESPECIALLY if you are going to change the rules later and say no mouthing at all- it creates confusion for the pup.

Beautiful!!! But am i the only one who doesn't like the name Roger!

Denis c- just a few points in regards to your last post- - When i use an e collar, i don't see fear in the dog (even my fearful georgie who i talked about earlier in this thread) If the level is low enough that the dog just feels it, i find the response ranges from mild confusion to even excitement in some dogs. This is in the early phase. As soon as the dog understands the e collar they DO know a stimulation is coming if the collar has been used consistently and properly. - My experience has told me that dogs stress levels reduce with a properly used e collar. With good timing, an e collar takes the stress and confusion away from the dog and gives them back control over the results they get from their behaviour. I have seen dogs who have been highly stressed or confused with other techniques relax within a very short time using an e collar. - I don't believe the human neck is the same as a dogs neck- depending on where you position the probes. The tope of a dogs neck is not the same as a humans neck. There are other factors that need to be taken into account including the breed and build of the dog, amount of fat and muscle etc. As a serious question to those who don't agree with e collars or anti bark collars- when other training has been exhausted, is static stimulation worse than death? (destruction order, poisoning etc are very real consequences for nuisance barking and being hit by a car happens often to dogs who do not come when called reliably off lead- not everyone can exercise their dogs to the degree needed on lead)