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Everything posted by Cosmolo
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course- its when one side starts attacking the other that creates problems. Positive trainers should be able to voice an opinion without being made to feel like idiots. Trainers who use aversives should be able to voice an opinion without being made to feel like they must be taking shortcuts to the detriment of the dog because they give a correction. One of the trainers i respect the most uses no physical aversives but she also acknowledges they work and does not consider them cruel or inhumane- she just chooses not to use them and pursues other training methods. She also understands that not everyone who uses aversives is an extremist who doesn't use rewards and/or corrects dogs needlessly. I know what she does works for many dogs and respect her work immensely. I think some disagreements come from ignorance too- i would never have used an e collar the way i do now had i not attended an amazing seminar a few years ago. Had you asked me prior to the seminar if i would have taught heel (for example) using an e collar i would have thought you were insane. I had been taught to use an e collar differently prior to the seminar and didn't like them much. Amazing the difference the training technique makes to a piece of equipment. Just because we have been taught one way doesn't mean that is the only way to use said piece of equipment.
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I see people talk about taking the easy way out with many different things relation to dog training. Using food or a toy has been described to me as the easy way out as has giving a correction. It always seems to have a negative connotation and i am not sure why? If a problem can be resolved or start to progress quickly- why is that a bad thing. Why should we select methods for dog X that require months of 'hard yards' if there is a better alternative?
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Just for the record, i used to be as purely positive as they come so i have seen both sides and i know training without aversives can definitely work. I choose to train with a combination of aversives and rewards now because i believe its better for the dog and owner. I find it interesting that so many people think that as soon as you use an aversive, you don't use or know how to use effective rewards and motivators- nothing could be further from the truth.
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Neutralisation Vs Socialisation
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
What service dogs are you referring to Erny? If its seeing eye dogs and assistance dogs, the dogs and trainers i have come into contact with do socialise the dogs and i believe they do have a positive value to both humans and other dogs. The training then over rides the positive value- if this is not possible, the dog is pet homed- is this over socialisation or the individual dogs temperament? ETA the other thread title is dog who ignores other dogs i think, if you want to have a read Erny -
I have started a new thread for those who want to talk socialisation vs neutralisation
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Rather than continuing to go OT in another thread here it is- Do you neutralise and why? How do you neutralise and what do you choose to neutralise to? Do you socialise and why? From my experience police dogs once they commence training are not socialised with strange people and dogs at all- i also don't believe that they are actively neutralised to them either. Assistance and Seeing eye dogs in my experience are socialised but then training must over ride the positive value they may have formed with others while they work. Dogs that are unable to work reliably don't usually make it out of the program and are pet homed. Customs, quarantine and other 'sniffer' dogs are usually kennelled to my knowledge- not in order to neutralise but to make their work the absolute highlight of their day. I don't believe a dog needs to be neutralised to do this. When my OH worked scent detection dogs, they were all well socialised dogs but did not waste energy playing with other dogs or people. They certainly did have a positive value for dogs and people though.
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Myself and my clients that i teach it to do know all of those things you mention. I see many 'average joes' using commands too- that just get progressively louder and more frustrated when the dog does not respond- as the timing etc of their command and correction is out- doesn't mean using a command is an ineffective technique.
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I disagree Monelite Provided the dog understands how to respond to a correction, has been set up and rewarded multiple times for the correct behaviour (ie not pulling) and is started off in a no-low distraction environment, i think teaching loose lead walking without a command can work just fine and when done properly the handler should NOT need to continuously correct the dog. May not be suitable for every dog but works for many.
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I don't use a correction chain to force a dog to do anything- i use it to provide a consequence to a behaviour i don't want the same way i provide rewards to the behaviours i do want so that the dog can choose what he wants to do based on the consequences. A correction chain or headcollar for me is just a different type of consequence to stopping or changing direction or removing a reward- nothing works for every dog so i choose which of the above combinations work for the dog i am training. I might use a correction on a flat collar and a prey drive reward for dog A and guidance on a headcollar and a food reward for dog B and a stop start method with no correction for dog C. By the time i get to many pulling dogs the behaviour has been inadvertently rewarded for months or years so some techniques that perhaps would have been effective with the dog as a pup, are no longer effective. I also have to consider a dogs quality of life- if the dog is never going for walks (thus building up more frustration and energy) and method A means it will be another few months before the owner can handle the dog on a walk, and method B means the dog can go for a walk (with owner in control) now while progressing the dogs training at the same time- i will usually choose option B. What do you think the dog prefers? With some dogs i can give 1-2 corrections and spend the rest of my walk/ training session providing rewards rather than waiting/ stopping/ ignoring which with some dogs can take much longer. Clarity and consistency is key- whatever training method you use. The training method should be dictated by the dog, not the handler- unless the handler is impaired in some way- and this will vary as every dog is different. And as i said earlier in this thread- i would not generally use a chain/ hc/ prong etc on a puppy- flat collar, food or toy rewards and a good trainer would be best.
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Midol- my dogs are not neutralised to dogs outside the home, they do interact with 'strange' dogs and puppies as part of my work and enjoyment for them. IMO its not possible to maintain a neutral value when i have other people regularly giving my dog positive experiences- i want them to experience this as i believe they enjoy it and i consider it important social interaction for them.
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Why do i want my dog to enjoy getting pats from strangers? Because strangers often pat my dogs. And i believe the dogs playing with other dogs, even within the home benefits them- not me. I don't see any negative fallout with my dogs from having positive values for other dogs and/ or people.
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But Midol if my dog has a positive value of +3 to another dog- it is not neutralised. Understand that you don't have to neutralise to everything. In a training context we generally talk about it with regards to dogs and people (as having a neutral value to a lawnmower is obviously a good thing) and i don't want my dogs to have a neutral value for those things. ETA answer to Midol's question- the benefits of not neutralising- my dog experiences normal enjoyable interactions with dogs and people and maintains normal social relationships with the other dogs in my home.
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Okay i do understand neutralisation and personally don't do it with my or my clients dogs. Assistance dogs in my experience are socialised with certain things and neutralised with others.
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What's Important To You?
Cosmolo replied to SkySoaringMagpie's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
Tough question! Its important to me that my dogs are well adjusted and get to enjoy being dogs, that they are well behaved enough to be included in many of the things we do from the beach and long walks to coming to see friends and family. I want my dogs to enjoy their training and be respectful of the people in their life and ours. I want to use my dogs drive to their and my advantage rather than supressing it and teach them that their are times to go into drive and times when they should not!! I want my dogs to be part of the family- inside, included and important to us. It can be difficult to separate my feelings on what i want for my dogs vs what others want when giving advice. Provided it is in the dogs best interest- i recognise that just because someone's relationship with their dog is different to mine that its okay and we work toward their goals- not mine! -
E Collars- Streamlined Collars Available?
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
Thanks erny- we currently use innoteks RT's for small dogs but they are proving to be extremely unreliable which causes problems! -
If your aim is to walk both dogs together eventually- make sure that the school you choose will allow you to at some point handle both dogs together. It may be worthwhile to invest in a private session to get you started then progress to dog school when you are ready to work with distractions. Haven't been to knox so not sure what they're like
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Are you taking him to training classes? What equipment do you currently walk him on?
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Dunbar Seminars In Sydney
Cosmolo replied to SkySoaringMagpie's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
When are they? -
Parvo Virus - New Puppy On Holidays At Dog Friendly Holiday Rental
Cosmolo replied to Peter D's topic in Puppy Chat
Parvo is a nasty disease- but where do you draw the line with regards to keeping the puppy safe? Is it riskier to send the puppy elsewhere to stay, what about taking the puppy to vet clinics- where all the sick dogs go?! Do you walk through any park and then return to your home where the puppy is? I would check with the property as to whether they require vaccinations from previous dogs as some places do, ensure your puppy does not come into contact with any faeces from other dogs anywhere and check with the area where you will be staying as to when the last parvo case was seen- some areas have not seen parvo for 10 years, some have more frequent outbreaks and this would affect your decision. Enrol in a quality puppy pre school to make sure your puppy receives safe socialisation- vital at this age- without exposure to disease. -
Do You Give Guarantees? Do You Expect Guarantees?
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
If you see a vet for a medical problem with the dog and the vet prescribes antibiotics- you give the antibiotics and see no change- do you expect a refund? Or for the next consult to be at no charge? -
Do You Give Guarantees? Do You Expect Guarantees?
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
Who decides if you have done it how you have been taught though? I have had clients who genuinely think they are doing something correctly but have forgotten one or two crucial details which affects the results- we resolve these things in the next session. Who decides on the time frame for the improvement to happen? If trainers provide a guarantee and an owner decides they should have seen improvement after one session and believes they haven't- what then? I'm talking about behaviour problems rather than teaching Fido to walk on a loose lead. -
Do You Give Guarantees? Do You Expect Guarantees?
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
I don't know how to quote but your comment about the plumber and tap made me laugh- BUT is so very true. -
Do You Give Guarantees? Do You Expect Guarantees?
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
I can only speak for us- we do tell people what broad techniques we use- basically that we use a combination of rewards and corrections but we don't get into what rewards/ corrections are used on the phone because we don't know that until we see the dog. We let them know that the techniques vary to suit the dog, owner and situation. -
Do You Give Guarantees? Do You Expect Guarantees?
Cosmolo replied to Cosmolo's topic in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports
But do people believe you when you tell them what successes have occurred? Thanks for your input molassesslass- I have never had an issue where a workable solution wasn't found for everyone, there have been occassions when i have wanted a second opinion and come back with another trainer to also assess the dog at no charge and we have continued on from there. But i would never say this upfront to someone or give an upfront guarantee because i can't guarantee that the owner will do what i suggest. If an owner doesn't like my suggestions and doesn't try them- what then? The service has still been provided but the issue not improved due to owner unwillingness. And we do charge more for an initial consult which is longer and more detailed with follow ups cheaper. I suppose it does require some blind faith in us from the client- as with hiring any professional to provide a service. Different though when you're dealing with someone's beloved dog- bit different to fitting a new tap!!