Cosmolo

Let me try to respond to your points in order- 1. Following you around is not always a good thing, i would be keen to ensure over the next few weeks he spends some time away from you so that he does not become anxious when you're not present. Teaching a nice bed stay and having him on lead at times in the house can help 2. I would have corrected Dakota before Rusty had a chance to growl. I have 4 dogs and none of them approach the others when eating. You could feed separately to avoid the issue or work on it at feeding time, redirecting Dakota to her own bowl. Rusty can then learn that you will take care of it for him so there is no need to guard. 3. I would have him on lead or use a diary/ ckipboard as a body block and either guide him away immediately or give a correction if he persists. Dakota must also follow the same rules though- she doesn't get to be pushy when he is getting pats 4. Would NOT put this down to dominance- excitability and lack of training is far more likely 5. Dakota's bowl needs to be removed- a multi dog household does not allow for a dog to leave their food and come back to it later. 6. Make sure you give Dakota opportunities to play with toys on her own. There is a difference between resource guarding and what i would describe as guarding in play- its hard to know which he is doing without seeing him. My dogs play with toys alot and when the younger one approached my older girl she growls and gives teeth displays- before bouncing around some more. 7. I think you have a dog who is resource guarding and need to engage a professional to come and help you with setting up a successful multi dog household if you are worried about him guarding you from Dakota. 8. I would not allow him to mount her With regards to defending the submissive dog- you should not favour any of the dogs IMO. So if you are going to say Rusty can't push Dakota away from you, the same goes for Dakota. You need to be clear and consistent and set up the situations where there are problems to teach both dogs how to behave. Its a new dynamic and Dakota will need to adjust as Rusty will need to settle into a new home. you can help this process with clear and consistent leadership and training immediately. Dogs don't mount to show what sex they are in most cases- particularly desexed dogs. It can be dominance, exploratory and sometimes play. Where did you get Rusty from? Is this Rusty the red kelpie from AAPS?

I disagree with settrlvr and wouldn't allow one of my dogs to put their mouth around any person, regardless of breed. I allow them to mouth lots of other things- but not people as i believe it is too problematic and confusing for many dogs. What is a soft mouth to me might be very different to someone else AND i have heard of cases where mouthy pups have been in trouble from the council when someone has greeted them out in public. I give corrections for mouthing rather than ignoring or yelping- what correction you use will vary depending on your puppy. If you would like to send me an email, i can forward you some information. Are you going to puppy school at all? Your instructor should be able to help you if you are.

I don't understand how a neutral value to people doesn't make a bad experience more likely to push the dog into negative than a dog with a positive value. A dog that has a positive value of 2 for other people is very different to a dog that has a positive value of 10 which is very different to a dog which has a negative value of -1.

Whereabouts are you? Are you with a rescue group? Some groups have behaviourists they work with for little or no charge-particularly for this kind of problem.

Agree with the sentiments of others. I do think it would be worth having a trainer go through with you what techniques would particularly suit the dog seeing as he's so different to what you have had before. Sometimes excess excitability can resolve very quickly with the right techniques and a little work The growling when you move him is another reason to see someone IMO.

Tend to agree with Nekhbet. Do not wait for the rotti's patience to wear thin- and it will eventually. I have 4 dogs that all run together and i expect to be able to hand out treats/ toys however i like.

Just ask who the trainer is and if you can speak with them beforehand. I run puppy classes through a vet clinic and if anyone has queries, the vet clinic just passes them on to me and i speak to them before the classes. Its if you had a trainer not willing to speak to you ahead of time that i would be worried. They should be happy to answer any questions you have.

Depends on what problem its for- if its for a puppy i don't think you would need a veterinary behaviourist unless there are serious issues?

I am not familiar with the areas of Sydey but i am sure another helpful DOler could suggest someone for you. Bumping for that helpful person

You should certainly find out who the puppy school is run by and how they run their classes. There are puppy pre schools run by less experienced people because some places consider pups to be 'easy'. Remembr that you are dealing with the most critical time in your pups life for socialisation and this should influence the trainer/ instructor you choose. Whereabouts are you located? With the calm down cue- initially use the word as they calm- it may be 5 minutes of just gentle holding before they start to calm to begin with. As they start to calm, use the word and then reward. Don't use the word as they are struggling or being frustrated because this is not the behaviour you want to pair with the command or reward. As they get better the command can come quicker until it is said before guiding/ helping the dogs and then reinforced. But you don't want to get into the habit of saying the command 5 times while they are continuing to play.

Congrats on your new pup! It is important that your pup socialises safely with some different dogs as it can be a problem if a dog is only used to playing with a super tolerant dog. There are a few things to keep in mind- - Don't be surprised if your pup is shy and withdrawn at puppy school to start with. I have found that many puppies who have gotten used to playing with the resident dog are a little overwhelmed when surrounded by puppies that look and interact differently to what they are used to for the 1st week or two. - Where are you going to puppy school? You do not want your pup to get told off by another puppy at this stage. Your puppy needs to have good experiences with your instructor teaching you when to intervene/ stop the puppy. Once this is well established it can be appropriate in somecircumstances for your pup to be told off by another dog who has bite inhibition themselves- they must not hurt your puppy or frighten them unnecesarily. I use one of my adult dogs for this at times- never another puppy who is in their formative stages- if another puppy tells your pup off and there is no intervention by the instructor (this should happen before thetelling off anyway) be careful! Puppy school should not be a free for all- there should be controlled interactions with a few pups at a time and supervision. - I think its important that you teach both dogs a cue to settle down so that you can stop rough games when you wish to. I would always step in if your older dog looks like they have had enough rather than waiting for the telling off that never comes! - Do make sure you give Willow some time to play fetch with you without the pup to harass her. You can either separate completely or use oit as an opportunity to teach the puppy to settle when their are exciting things going on. Leads and high value treats can help you to separate the dogs and get them to focus on you- don't let them go when they are frustrated and remember it will take time the first few times to getthem to settle- be persistent!!

I know a few people who use it but their dogs seem to need more regular dentals than mine who get raw bones nd have never had a dental. Not sure what the reasons are for not feeding bones but if its because you don't want them to ingest them (blockages, perforations etc) maybe a really big solid bone with not much on it would do the trick? Or teeth cleaning and normal food

Ignore him when he is carrying on at the back door- no eye contact, no verbal correction etc. He will get worse before he gets better and you must be consistent. It will stop and it does get better! Most dogs don't like the crate to start with- ensure there is a comfy bed, treats and toys in there and try to put him in when he is tired to start- again, ignore the crying and let him out hen he is calm and settled. Build up the time frame over a few weeks. Beautiful puppy!

Sorry corvus- i believe there is stress in any learning. Stress is not always obvious and not necesarily as negative as people may think but if there was no stress at all- why would the dog learn or change? Interesting to hear other views

It does TSD. I don't always think that the easy way has to be negative though. Soetimes training can be quick and produce rapid learning with no negative fallout for the dog. Would anyone like to comment on the relationship (if any) between a longer time frame and stress/ loading for dogs? I am not talking about all cases of course but i do think sometimes by virtue of the fact that method XYZ takes longer, that this creates more stress for the dog than if ABC method was used and the dog learned quickly. Another question- Is a slightly higher level of stress (lets say 5 on a scale of 1-10) for a much shorter period of time better or worse than a lower level of stress (lets say 3) for a longer period of time?

You definitely need to get a professional to assist you with both puppies after such an experience. Any advice over the net will just be guess work and given that a pup has already been hurt- it is not worth the risk. What area are you in? Perhaps a DOLer could recommend someone for you.

So you shouldn't neutralise a dog who does not have good nerves? Dogs with good nerves can and do still have bad experiences so it doesn't convince me that neutralisation doesn't make it easier for a dog to asign a negative value after a bad experience than if the dog was well socialised

This thread was not about using physical punishments? It was about the negative connotation that comes with the phrase 'taking the easy way out' whether that be using a correction, a food lure etc etc. But please don't imply that people who use corrections musn't love their dogs- thats just so very wrong.

I can appreciate both points of view as with my young boy the semi check is there as a 'back up' at this stage in his training but with my other 3 (except when Georgie is scared which is another thing entirely) i expect them to work just as well on a flat collar as a semi check or correction chain.

Could someone who neutralises help out with jesomil's question? I'd like to know the answer too

Thank you Harminee. I still haven't made a post in here about our boy Otto who we lost in January, we miss him every day and i just know he would be waiting at the bridge for my OH in particular- they were best friends

Jesomil- thats my exact question with the bad experience to a neutralised dog and one of the major reasons i don't do it. If someone who does neutralise could explain their thoughts on that situation that would be great!

My dogs have been trained in part on correction chains and walk on flat collars in most situations. 2 of them always wear flat collars, 1 of them wears a semi check at times (if going to higher distraction environments) as he is 12 months and gets distracted easily and the other wears a chain only if i have to take her into a situation where she may get frightened as she can slip her collar

I have a genuine question for the positive trainers- firstly i think kelpiechick makes a good distinction that positive training typically just doesn't include positive punishment but you have to use other types of correction (even ignoring) to train. Then we get into the whole physical vs psychological corrections which i think is for another thread! But my question is- Does positive training in your mind include negative reinforcement- such as a headcollar? To be honest i think both sides feel 'bashed' in discussions such as these and it would be a whole lot simpler if we could all agree that different things work for different dogs and owners. Don't know how to quote sorry- "But I kind of prefer to float my dog's boat as well as my own with relationship based training, as already mentioned by BC's4me" Its things like this where it becomes hard not to be defensive- i do this too, just in a different way. My dogs are very happy and i delight in them wanting to work for me and building a relationship too. I just take a different path.

Don't want this to turn into an aversives vs no aversives debate but oen thing i would like to discuss is whether taking more time in itself can actually be aversive to the dog? Lets say i have a dog who loves food but i consider using food as a lure to be taking the easy way out so i teach another way using a pat to reward. A pat is not aversive but with this particular dog will take longer to teach the exercise- is the very fact that it takes longer aversive/ loading/ stressful to the dog? Does it mean the dog is confused for longer?