Cosmolo

Of course!!!!!!! But i believe you can do that WITHOUT insinuating that others train using fear, damage the relationship with their dog etc etc!! Thats the difference. I have some great trainer friends who i would not see eye to eye with regarding training. But they are still friends because they don't accuse me of abusing my dogs, making them fearful or ruining my relationship with them!

The injury is the implication that those who use corrections with their dogs train through fear and adversely affect their bond with their dog.

Not all dogs are that fast to learn with that method corvus- i agree. So what do you propose the owners with the not so quick dogs do while their large dog is leaping all over them, their children or their guests? What should the people who are not light enough on their feet to move out of the way do? Do you think that standing on the leash, while the dog lunges trying to jump up is different to a lead correction? I don't. I've seen people mess up with many different methods- 'positive' included where dogs have then had preventable aggression issues. I could give many examples of this. Not the fault of the tool- the fault of the method. Everyone has a choice as to what technique they use and that is fine. But to suggest that those who use corrections are training through fear and diminishing the bond between them and their dogs? Thats where you will get argument from me.

And just because a person used punishment and had a poor or diminished bond- is that the fault of the punisher? Or the training method being used? Using food treats can make a dog fat- is that the food's negative side effect or the fact that the person dishing out the food treats gave too many too frequently?

But corvus thats my point. When i saw the dog they were yelling and pushing etc. But after teaching them how to use a clear correction, the dog stops jumping, they remain calm because they know what to do and when to do it and can then reward the quick responses and learning. They had had the dog since a pup- not everyone knows how to teach the right things from day one- many people don't and i don't think they would appreciate me saying that they should have instead of giving them a solution for the here and now.

I have had the same thing dog rock- people assuming that one of my dogs in particular is trained without any corrections because of how he works, and thats not true. My dogs missed the bond diminishing memo too!

Move the lead from place to place as many times within a day as you possibly can, without going fo a walk. That would be my starting point. Are you going to training? Thats the best bet for the loose lead walking and general excitability.

And i know dogs corvus wo have become aggressive after someone used positive reinforcement incorrectly. Timing, consistency and clarity is key no matter what training you are doing. I use physical aversives where appropriate and i don't believe its fear based training. A dog that is terrified of its handler won't learn anything. Corvus can you give me examples of an aversive that doesn't cause fear and one that does? I just want to understand where you're coming from: ) Jo Public whose 50-60kg dog is jumping them such as the example i gave earlier does need a quick physical correction in their toolbox IMO- what else would they safely do? Its hard to ignore the dog as you fall to the ground. A dog should recover from a correction quicker than 30 seconds too IMO

A little Ot but an example of a situation where using correction is not a 'last resort'. I went and saw a client recently who had a great dane cross (great dane height but a bit more solid) who jumped on visitors and had recently caused a large cut on the owners older relative. The dog was locked away whenever visitors arrived as they could not take the risk of the dog injuring someone. There was no opportunity to safely ignore as a training solution so we did use corrections immediately. The dog responded well and will now be allowed to interact with guests with a little more training.

I agree with you Erny. I had missed the bark collar comment.. And i too find that the vast majority of clients have not punished their dog using a physical type correction ever? And et their dogs are still confused, fearful, aggressive etc- like i said before a punisher on its own does not create this, poor training does.

I am so sorry. What a wonderful photo

I am so sorry. What a wonderful photo

Yes One council wanted to charge me over $2500 a quarter when we would be using said 'grass'/ dust bowl for only 1 hour each week for 4 weeks out of the 12. Its over $600/hour ;) :D

I too wish i had a spare 1/4 million!! Not going to happen though ;)

No i agree with that part of it Anita. I disagree that qualified people who use/ suggest punishment in appropriate contexts are "taking a liability risk" and that punishment alone causes some of the adverse responses they suggest. Poor training, lack of clarity, timing and lack of consistency creates those effects, not just the fact that one uses a punisher. Overall though, its not bad reading and i think they do acknowledge things that others wouldn't.

I know what you mean s+t- those flat pieces of grass are pretty precious! Have you tried approaching schools? I went to an intro session at Action dogs years ago and then couldn't attend due to unforseen circumstances- i was a bit annoyed that they would not give me my money back at the time but i understand it now ;)

I want my dogs to be able to enjoy and have value for interactions with other dogs and people. I realise that the neutralised dog does not desire for what it doesn't know but I feel like i would be depriving my dogs if they were neutralised. I would find it very difficult to control every interaction with people that my puppy would have without it becoming insular. I have had many people come up to my dogs and pat before asking and before i could say stop! I also think that if a dog has been very well socialised by their breeder they will already have a positive value for dogs/ people whewn you get them.

I would try to give it a little more time. See how you progress, it can be hard to go from single to multi dog household but most people i know would never go back after the initial settling in/ adjustment period. But of course the shelter does take dogs back that have not worked out for whatever reason if thats what is needed.

I redirect 30 seconds after providing a correction if i have given one so i don't cofuse the puppy. :wink: at BMP

Thanks for the link. There are parts that i believe are accurate and parts that are inaccurate or don't provide a complete picture but its interesting nonetheless. I would love to see some info regarding combination use of positive r and/ or negative r AND positive reinforcement. using one does not have to be to the exclusion of the other And using a punisher doesn't mean that teaching an alternate behaviour and addressing the underlying cause is not also carried out. I'd also love to see some studies on the effects of psychological punishments vs physical punishments, the info only mentions examples of physical punishments

In my experience working dog breeds respond very well to drive training too. I would expect Rusty to have quite high prey drive once he settles into a home and relaxes. So you will need to teach an off switch too! They are typically bright and intelligent dogs who enjoy a challenge- and i find mental stimulation rather than physical stimulation to be the key! Just to clarify kavik- i didn't mean guiding him into an obedience position (although from memory he guided quite well as its part of the temp test) but just guiding him away when he is being pushy. Not sure which you meant when you said they don't respond well to being guided?

My dogs have a high value for people and do not go racing up to them in parks etc. A dog with a high value is not always out of control.

It does become second nature to manage a multi dog household once you get used to it! I have pm'd you too

If it helps we do know Rusty as we temp tested him just last week. Are you going to bring him to the classes at the shelter?

No probs settrlvr- i just have a different view based on my experience. I do agree that consistency, patience and rewards are key and also agree that labs can be the worst I also disagree with Dunbar I think its unfair to change the rules on a dog when they are 4-6 months old when you could have avoided the puppy practicing the behaviour in the first place. If you have the opportunity to be consistent from day one, i think we should be. Work out your expectations- settrlvr has different expectations to me and trains for that, i train consistently for my expectations (not to ever put your mouth around a person) from day one. I believe that bite inhibition is learned most effectively with mother and littermates, other puppies and dogs as they get older etc. I don't think they need to learn bite inhibition on people. My dogs have very soft mouths and i witness incredible bite inhibition when i watch them interact with ecah other but were never allowed to mouth me. I also wouldn't use vinegar- ouch!