Nekhbet

in Vic apparently they should be muzzled ... Buses will still say no, but I used to take my Malinois on the train into the city and walk through Flinders St station. As for dogs being unhygenic, I had my Mal on the train once. We sat at the back away from everyone and took up no space. Two drunk guys walked on the train (middle of the day) and one leaned over and vomited all over the floor in front of us, laughing how the train made him sick. I beg to differ the fact that dogs are dirtier then people. You will find tolerance more for small dogs then big ones. Because they can carry them about people seem to make an exception, which shits me to tears. I nearly picked up my Rottweiler once when being told I was not welcome in a market, then a man walks past me carrying a Daschund, then when inside put it on the ground to walk around. I'll fix my back and do it one day dammit

After having a 2kg geriatric pomeranian swinging off my boob, the biting my wrist almost to the bone I can vouch for the fact littlies can cause a hell of a lot of pain

because we have a culture that dogs are not something to elevate in status. - you chuck it a couple of toys which its meant to not destroy, and has to be happy with for the next god knows how long - it eats whatever is cheap, that fancy food is only for show dogs - we see a massive distinction between 'pets' and 'show dogs'. The fact there is little to no difference is not apparent to majority of the population, and people will say why bother going through a registered breeder all I want is a pet, not an expensive show animal - dog sports are not encouraged in this country, in fact we make them seem unnatainable or a chore. They're in fact decreasing which is sad - puppy preschools, although a good invention, are not pushing people into dog clubs. Too many owners see them as the be all and end all of training, when in fact they should be informed it is nothing but the beginning. I hear a lot 'we did dog training' ... where ... 'Fido went to puppy preschool' - Too many people are speaking on our behalf. I come across many people who want to take their dogs places but it seems to be local and state governments that jump into stupid dog laws. I dont think the proportion of people who really are offended by dogs in public places is really as high as they make it out to be. One example is the night market here in Geelong. Last year dogs were allowed except for in the food selling areas/tables (fair enough as some people sat on the grass to eat) This year there was a fence around the whole thing and a blanket ban. Those of us who brought dogs stood around the perimeter like lepers while waiting for others who had gone inside (irony - held at an off leash area) - people dont like standing out. Sometimes I'm the only one walking about with a dog ... then many will walk up for a pat and a chat, saying 'oh I never thought my dog would enjoy coming out to this too!' Push the envalope, you might start a trend - people are not that dog savvy. They also seem to believe anything that is written, when an article says 'this is a good family dog' they just go do it, despite the fact the writer may not know the head from the tail. People used to go see dogs and breeders, they knew that dogs off the farm were workers, instead now its fun to go take the kids for a drive and pick up one of those short hair border collies to bring into their suburban home! We're an instant gratification society, and since dogs need work not enough of them keep up with that ideal. How many people are purchasing expensive rarer breeds only to dump them months later when reality sets in (I have a $3000 dog care of that attitude) - we're living in smaller and smaller spaces. When your neighbour is 2 meters away from you of course you're both going to hear what the other is doing. A dog will bark when you're that close. It's not PC to complain about loud bratty kids, so we pick on the dogs for breathing too loudly because we insist on living in shoeboxes. Modern estates are shockers for amplifying sounds I have found.

Where did anyone mention your dog was dangerous? I personally dont agree with any dog putting part of a person in their mouth. I have seen it go wrong too many times. If you want to do it, that is your perogative I just personally will not condone it as the way to go with all pups. I too own working breed dogs, we play tug but they will never go for my hands because I worked on bite targeting. I can also put my hands in their mouths, down their throats at times and they will sit there happily with slack jaws. Did I say you had to be mean or cruel? No. Firm but fair - you hurt me, I show you it's an unwanted and unpleasant thing to do. I dont like walking around with arms covered in scratches and bruises. Trust me when a dog bites another too hard you can see it turn around and give it the telling off of a lifetime, even pups do. Saying that the times my dogs have been in extreme pain they have not lashed out at me or mouthed me. I get the vocalisation and the normal range of behaviours but I dont worry about a lash out, and neither will the veterinarian/chiro - when you have 50+ kg of muscled male at the end of the leash it's a comfort for all. The working Mal pups I had here I redirected onto toys if they started mouthing me as I didnt want to kill the workability, but I still didnt allow teeth on me (because they're bloody sharp and they bloody hurt a lot!) They were taught toys and sleeves were a heck of a lot better then putting teeth to human skin. I know some people that have encouraged mouthing in working dogs, and to walk around with your arms covered in bruises and cuts to me is rediculous. For the bolded bit ... so your dog has never ever ever mouthed that little bit too hard, or taken a bite of your hand instead of the toy in over excitement?

ummm. no. No dog should put their mouth on you, you are not a dog, you are a human. Bite inhibition means you DONT mouth at all. Think of it this way ... if you want the dog to learn never to counter surf, do you put the dog on the counter and keep luring it off? or do you catch it before it jumps up there and show it the alternative? ETA The modern ideas that mouthing is acceptable I think contributes too. Oh the dog will know what to do when it gets overexcited around a child or when we have to handle it if it's in pain! It's gentle now! Then one day it instinctively opens its jaws at you or a child and it accidentally goes too far. A dog is not a machine. They make mistakes as do we - you're basically saying that everyone with a drivers license will know what to do and an accident will never happen. If a dog learns that putting bits of people in its mouth is OK an accident is bound to happen. I think we have Ian Dunbar to thank for this rediculous theory.

I made my stance. I prefer the utility crop, not the tall show crop which is a vanity thing. I dont like the tall crop as invariably it flops, especially at the tips, and to me that looks rediculous and really is a waste of time. My point about illogical arguments was when you mention cropping you get the same old thing. A few people in here are still on the vanity only bandwagon which shows they truely have not researched anything at all. I didnt mean to infer anyone was ignorant, I just wish if people wanted to discuss this they looked into it properly. Otherwise its just another merrygoround ride to nowhere

there is no such thing as a random attack. True 'out of the blue' behaviour can occur due to brain tumours/medical problems. most other times people cannot recognise warning signs. The dogs behaviour keeps festering and building until one day BANG you have a bite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAHMo3zXoA Now, watch this video especially at 45 seconds and 55 seconds. Listen to the owners. Their dog growled at a child and was hiding behind the owner, so they tried again. Then, at the times above they have the dog on a short leash, the arm around the dog and despite his avoidance behaviour (notice the pulling back, the rolling of the eyes and face) they push a doll in his face - what option does the dog have but to lash out? Another thing is to understand the difference between a true attack and something accidental through play or prey. If a dog truely has the fight to latch onto someone and 'attack' you cant simply push that dog away. Trained or truely aggressive dogs will push in, latch on and then you have a problem. Meanwhile when I hear about nips to the faces/arms I more assume prey/fear and the dog warning or not truely wanting to engage in a full physical confrontation. As for kids ... they scream, flail, make sudden movements and tend to behave like prey animals. That shrill cry instinctively sets off most dogs as its the same as a prey animal in pain (think about the noise squeaky toys make and why dogs love them) Set off the drive, dog chases down child and grabs it, only then does it realise 'oh bugger human!' but by then its left a few puncture wounds. Dogs have teeth. Dogs use them, its in their nature. This is why I dont like hands off methods when dealing with, or allowing any mouthing full stop. Dog mouths, I make it really unpleasant and lesson learned quickly. Pups can learn quickly not to mouth people, you just have to not feel sorry for them when they throw a tantrum at being told off and also teach them that toys are for mouthing, never people. I also find that in general people are fairly in the dark about dog behaviour in general. Dogs are expected to grow out of jumping and mouthing or they're bad dogs that need getting rid of I hear it A LOT! Conversely these no manners dogs just get left in the backyard and especially the stronger willed breeds, frustration and boredom build until they make a jailbreak to satisfy their drive themselves with whatever is at hand.

to me and many others this is just as a subjective thing as cropping is to most. I dont like the idea of just desexing because everyone else does it so it must be good. I dont see the advantages outweighing the disadvantages at all in most cases with desexing, whereas I do with cropping and docking for my purposes. I also see the procedures are much less then a spey on an adolescent/adult dog. As for the cancer risk, a natural hormone required for growth is now something to be afraid of so we cut it out - yet then we slather our dogs in every chemical under the sun. If sex hormones were that dangerous all species would have died out by now. It's all about perception. Saying that I think the fact our hands are tied is unfair. If the government was so worried about it being 'cruel' then they should have put in place an accreditation scheme and registration for veterinarians who are licensed to carry out the procedure. Like I said I'm not trying to be difficult, I just would like people to have a good think about the whole thing before just spouting the propaganda that has been flooding the market. I see no logical thought except what has come from anti-cropping and docking slogans. Thats why, I had a good think about it, weighed it up, was a vet nurse for years, and I dont see a problem with it if done properly

rule of thumb - if any vet pronounces ED/HD or any other bone problem without an x-ray or claims to be able to confirm it without an x-ray, find a new one ASAP. It is impossible to tell 100% what exactly the problem is just by pure manipulation, particularly in problems like this. Some symptoms are similar to other non-serious conditions. Your dog could be sore, have its back out, or keep reinjuring the same thing because it just wont rest it. I also dont like anti-inflammatories for mild pain because pain is there for a reason - to let you know something is wrong and to stop running around to prevent further injury! Stolzsein I have one for you ... ran into some people that have a rottweiler, he apparently had 'puppy arthritis' and had jagged edges on the the femoral heads (ie his hips). Vet told them that will wear down with age and the arthritis will dissapear and can be a common one in breeds like rotties. Oddly enough it didnt ... did I miss something in anatomy? I have never heard of a jagged joint smoothing itself down as the dog matures from adolescent to adult - arthritis is arthritis. My boy has a similar thing, but all 4 legs are arthritic

ever think that maybe a dog is more difficult because the owner tries to mould it into preconceived ideas instead of what the dog actually needs?

cetrigen in the aerosol

wow - confirmed ED without an x-ray? What, is your vet magical? You cant give 100% unless you do the xray and have an experienced veterinarian look at it. Go make the trip up to George Schofield and have him check its not something else wrong, not just the elbow George Schofield OAM 1530 Mickleham Road, Yuroke 03 9333 1602 vets have been wrong before. I had one tell me my Belgian bitch had sudden onset severe arthritis by pulling her legs out perpendicular to her torso. The dog, having anatomy not made to go that way, squealed and tried to nip her. I go to Neil Meurer in Lal Lal, he diagnosed a dislocated tail, one swift move and she was right as rain again.

But you are giving him a chance ... RAZZLE ... COME!!! doesnt comply go get him - he was asked to comply, and then he either listened to your command or he didnt. Problem is with counting you then condition the dog to wait until you get to 2. He probably now thinks that you're not really serious about his recall until you reach the 2 command, which can be a disaster later on when you need him to listen and listen now.

Read up on history ... it was actually. Many breeds are not cropped or docked the same way because there was a purpose to it - many terriers done so their tail was a handle and not broken when hunting down holes etc. So many generations of traditionally cropped and docked breeds cannot be changed overnight. You're not convinced - how much do you actually know about dogs? My rottweilers tail is nothing but vertebrate. Its thin, boney, too long and whip like. He's ripped off the tip because there's no meat there to protect it at all. Many Dobermanns have a similar problem. Some breeds dont even carry the genes for tail shape/ear setting - it was never an issue before so no one worried about it. The point was traditionally it didnt matter (mostly) what the ear/tail quality was like because they were removed anyway. I still ask what your stand on desexing is then. Like I asked before what makes on procedure so much more palatable to the masses (Despite being an overall more painfull and dangerous one) then the others - one done at a couple of days old when nerves are not well formed and another at a young age when the ears are still soft.

desexing now will make no difference at all. You have moved, there are new smells and being a male dog he obviously feels the need to mark. If you cannot supervise him, dont let him wander the house alone. If he cocks his leg 'AHHH' and take him outside to show him the desired behaviour.

Why are you dragging it out so long? You tell a dog once, if he doesnt listed just go get him. Conversely keep dogs that have a good chance of not listening on a long line.

My point is, it's a much larger and dangerous surgery then nicking off some ears. It's just that we've bought into the hype and consider it some minor procedure done just because we should, or we just can't deal with the fact it's effort to have to train a male dog or contain a bitch. I'm not being argumetitive for no reason, but do you see the point when people throw out the 'oh its a painful, barbaric act!'. Watch a bitch spey and see which is really the more complicated, painful surgery. As for having a uterus being dangerous ... a natural part of the animals growth and development is really that dangerous? Really? If cutting out a uterus or testicles is done as a preventitive, then why is docking and cropping for the same reason so horrible?

keep him on lead or use a light muzzle until he's reliable. Most effective solution would be some proper ecollar work with a trainer if you want it really proofed

but did you desex the dog so you didnt have to put in the effort to contain her properly during seasons? Whats the difference I dont like my rotties tail either - I wish he was docked. Its thin, crappy and keeps being injured.

any chance of tubal ligation if it means a working home for them?

I was just thinking that ... they're a lot of work even before the 8 week stage. Could blow their chances of a decent working home if they've done nothing with them

that is a show crop which many breeds have ie the tall skinny crop from the US In Europe they leave a 'bell' at the bottom to add structure and substance to the cropped ear I prefer dogs to have a short or utility crop, no flopping, less injuries, and looks good remember in the traditional context this process had a reason. How many of your dogs were hunters or full time workers?

There are breeds more disposed to exhibiting those types of behaviours. A lot of bull and protection breeds in partcular and it has to be factored in when purchasing a dog that it IS part of breed traits to behave in some ways. Its one of the points of creating breeds

Ahh what a stupid owner. Dump such a responsibility on someone else. Belgian shepherd, short hair. Belgian as in from Belgium, its like saying Germany shepherd. Shame they're going to be desexed at a young age, I like working dogs to stay entire particularly the males. Then again goes against rescue try specialist canines also try calling the prisons, Steve Austin at Pet Resorts Australia always has time for another dog or knows someone who will take them. Also Schutzhund Australia and the Kollenbergs at NordenStamm Malinois might have someone who can take one or two

I posted in the other thread