Nekhbet

when you get an 8 week old puppy with below workable drive you hand it back. Why accept a dog that means more work and has a chance of not being usable at all. When we're talking about pups, yup it is 123. If you're pup has a bad experience at 8 weeks then you have the critical period to work it out, not withhold it from other people. I'm not talking high value rewards. The person doesnt have to cuddle your dog within an inch of its life but completely withholding any form of interaction (no pats etc) to me is just trying to make the best out of a dog that may not be up to scratch. so do we fulfill their expectations and just churn out more stereotypical animals? I would have thought thats doing the industry no favours. One of my dogs does not have nerves of steel. Thats why she wasnt bred from. But I spent MORE time and effort into training and came out with a workable solution that meant she can work and be a house dog. In no way do I talk about the perfect dog because they pretty much do not exist. Every dog has its eccentricities and we as handlers have to work with and around them. There is always ways and means, the trick is to not just sick with your favourite method but what gets the result in the dog.

no but he has purchased a working dog and wants 110% from the genetics by using recommended methods. If you offer training in simply how to 'not cause issues' in that dog then I am a little concerned. Dogs change, their behavior changes as they mature and how we shape them. What happens if LM is very subtly just a little off the mark. Something a professional trainer can see but he may not. When it comes down to security its better to be going under a good trainer on a very regular basis and sticking with their method even in between then purchasing a book. You should know if you have trained that dogs go through their peaks and troughs and its not something a book but experience and problem solving skills will help. OK my original post was that I was. You brought it up a lot so I explained WHY I initially did mention it. Its a part of the training and yes, something to consider when you are training a growing large breed. so when do you start pressing the button. It doesnt take weeks to condition a puppy to a collar. Have strength in your convictions. If you use an e-collar on a pup under 6 months and recommend others to do so as well then just go 'yup I find it works immensely, increases focus and helps channel drive" etc etc.

I believe focus comes down to training and drive more then witholding a degree of interaction with other people. If you're dog cannot hold focus because there are people about then the training method has to be looked at. If the dog has the drive to work and you have trained it, it will work even if you strap a bitch in heat under its nose. If withholding certain things within a dogs life, especially one that probably will live in a residential area or family home not a security kennel, then I think there is an element of importance of having a dog meet people as a puppy. Bitework has a bad enough reputation as it is, why not prove that a dog can be both a pathetic snugglebum as well as a good working dog as in days of yore?

so steve are you telling me you use e-collars on pups 3-6 months of age?

OK before I step off this merry-go-round, if you read what I actually wrote - my point was that the basic fundamental of training a working dog (the impact of handler energy/praise on the dog) was such a suprise to LM. This is a fairly basic concept that should be down pat BEFORE the use of an e-collar. All I stated was maybe his foundations of training a working dog need to bit a bit stronger before using equipment. Understanding the end result and process as a whole is required before you do the individual parts. I also commented on bones. So you do no bitework with your sec dogs? They just flounce around learning what exactly in the 12-18 months of training? Thats where my comment was directed. It worries me you consider a manual and two hours a "complete training program" actually especially on a puppy. Once again only my opinion Steve.

ahhh so sorry I have giant schnauzer on the brain for some reason yeah that should be fine to store as long as you keep it somewhere away from rodents and constant heat

only had one coffee today ... brains going *put put put*

by some people's logic ... YUP! sad isnt it. Dont worry this still happens today. Back 'er up into a corner and agitate long enough for the dog to snap into foaming teeth at the mere mention of a command and Bob's your uncle

follow the breeders diet. If you are purchasing from a backyard breeder go get yourself some Eagle Pack Giant Breed puppy and raise it on that. Do NOT add calcium powder to your dogs diet it can be highly detrimental

K9 LM had just stated he wanted his dog out of fear period so he could whack an e-collar on it. Thats why I asked what he was using it for - the 'wait till out of fear period' comment made me wonder. As for the bones and growth - a security dog requires training in bitework does it not? A fairly physical activity for a dog especially a growing one. If you train for 12-14 months and say have it out working at 18 months you will have had to have spent quite some months having the dog chasing, grabbing sleeves, pulling against leash/tether during agitation etc. my original comment was directed at the fact e-collar use requires some skill. Being surprised that handler enthusiasm directly impacts on the dog means the handler needs to learn a little more about the training as a whole before launching straight into e-collar use. I would think that part of your system steve involves motivation and praise not just negative reinforcement by removing a the 'correct stimulus for that dog' as LM stated. where did I directly state I have an issue with using an e-collar. I think they are brilliant and are a revolution in dog training when used properly. As stated before LM gave snippets of information and hence I gave generalisations because the actual training regiment was not stated. I've been to your seminar Steve and I have seen how you train as well. Oh by the way I have been a K9 guard before and worked with other K9s. I've seen what people consider 'trained' as well so I am simply giving LM the idea there are two sides to the coin in the security world. Maybe you didnt know hence not understanding why I posted the fact I let my pup be patted by people at a young age I didnt get a working line Malinois just for fun As for the workability if being suspicious and overly paranoid of people are not due to lack of interaction with them as a pup but nerves then why do people not allow people to touch their working pup? I dont see why letting people have a quick pat on the owners terms is a bad thing. My malinois climbs into people's laps for a cuddle but damned if you're getting into my house if i'm not home. So did I make a mistake? I like having guests and I love the fact she can also be a dog in her down time. Fairs fair, if a guard can head down to the pub on a friday night I think the dog has every right to get the odd belly scratch. Doesnt mean she neglects her duties and flies at the nearest group of people for cuddles. My comments about letting the dog dictate the pace are just that. I understand people purchase an animal with the express purpose of working that - I would be pissed too if I paid X dollars and it took ages to train up the dog. BUT my comment was directed that some people can put unrealistic expectations on an animal and to get to the outcome use methods that are slightly unsavory. Yes 2-3 years would be a tad long but at the same time I wouldnt have confidence going out into the field with a dog under 18 months of age as I would worry about his long term physical, and maybe to a degree his mental health as well. Just my opinion Steve thats all it is, if I'm wrong ignore me.

if you bought the bag will it expire by the time she is needing it?!? Dry foods can still go rancid because of the oils inside so check the expiry date - you shoudlnt be using it for about 12-18 months! ETA speak to your breeder about using Orijen and if the diet will be suitable for a giant schnauzer it may be too high in protein for their liking

you can always extend the horizontal parts in further - yes they are based on the cat concept. Another concept is simply mesh at a 45 degree angle sloping in from the vertical but that can be trickier to build then just using huge brackets (which are about $8 from Bunnings)

quick fixes that are cheap and easy - http://www.geelongcity.vic.gov.au/library/pdf/5194/33.pdf http://www.hssv2.org/Fence/Fence.htm

I'm the weirdo I find nothing wrong with letting my pup/dogs be patted by other people and be friendly. Has not decreased their workability in fact it has improved it since they see everyone as neutral and nothing to worry about. Conversely I dont have a super suspicious dog either which is nice when you go into the CBD or on public transport.

yeah I know a couple of people training security dogs in Qld and frankly they shouldnt own a dog let alone be a security trainer. GSDs take a while to mature. Why push it? And like I said why use an E-collar are they going to stimulate the dog into defense earlier by supressing the prey or just use it as a corrective aid? Who says I have to agree with a lot of Sch/Sec people. Geez spent nearly 5 years with them and mopped up a few of their byproducts Midol. Did you see my dog Krueger? His breeder and trainer were meant to be big in the sec world. Nothing but cruelty and blaming a poor dog on their own inadequacies. I also got another dog for a while who was trained the poor thing had no off switch and was too jittery to even sleep, the only thing she was good for was the vet clinic. Do what your trainer says but dont just follow because. Your dog dictates what you do and E-collars, prongs etc just because someone tells you too will not make a better dog. Your groundwork and encouragement will do more for Montu then an E-collar. I dont like time limits because all dogs are different, all lines are different and you will learn that giving the dog a little extra time can make a world of difference. ETA an 18 month old GSD is still a big doofus. Go meet a few you will see that although they can cause a ruckus and show a few teeth theyre still just teenagers. I woudl rather put an extra 6 months in before running out and working a 14-18month old dog. double ETA - I really hope Montu works out for you he looks like a beautiful dog. Dont take everything to heart, I'm a crochety old cow sometimes and I speak my mind because my primary concern is the long term welfare of the dog. But sometimes the sec world needs to lower its expectations of a dog. His hips and bones are still developing at 12 months of age another reason to do things slowly. As I said a dog can carry on like a porkchop and inspire awe at its tenacity but is it because the dog is a full hard defense dog or has it been pushed into showing this reaction when its crapping itself and has a chance of redirection because there's an element of instability?

why are you using an e collar on a pup Midol? You should be concentrating on building drive, handler-dog relationship and socialisation to bring out the best in your dog and you dont need an e-collar for that. Rediculous, dont push your pup too early let them mature at their own pace and work them when they show they are ready not when you THINK they are ready. A lot of people in security are in a desperate hurry to have the working dog down pat ASAP. If it takes 2-3 years so be it. If it takes 12-18 months somethings not right. ETA If you are so suprised how handler praise affects a dogs enthusiasm then put down the E-collar and go learn some more before you push the dogs drive into the ground.

hmmm measure the snout length and circumference and I'll let you know how the measurements match up, probably would as they are pretty adjustable. measure from the chin to throat too as that might be too long for the bully. I think the height of the muzzle would be OK for the shape of the face

ahh this is the thing about drive - it turns off the drive for food. Its a mechanism in the dog to make sure it does the job. What good would a dog be if you want it to work and it goes 'oooh snacky' at every turn This is why something that applies an 'OI pay attention' reaction to the dog is required. Even on a flat collar you can do little sharp tugs *tug tug tug tug* quickly walking away from the scent and raise your voice "DAISY COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME" long and loud so its not fleeting enough to be ignored. We tend to speak quickly once we think a dog knows a command but when they are distracted they can easily miss what you're saying - we do it all the time! I use this method on pups because you teach them to follow you and to pay attention. You are also teaching them not only the rules you expect but what you expect them to do. Walking away tugging on the collar encourages the brain to pay attention whereas any pulling at all just flicks on the opposition response in a dog and encourages it to work harder. Opposition responses are also useful in some instances but again, you should know what you're doing.

the point is to start without a tool and think a little. Its easy to put a chain on a pup - yes it will work but you're missing valuable groundwork. even security/shutzhund puppies get heaps of praise, encouragement and rewards when theyre young. A pup under 6 months doesnt need a chain. Thats 4 months of training before you decide if the pup may need a correction chain down the track (after 6 months you see new attitudes mature so this is why I dont discount that needing a chain later will never happen especially in some types of dogs) or if it is simply some gaps on your training.

Midol you be careful using fishing rods. Dont let Montu hurt his teeth or rip out one of those puppy ones at his age you shoudlnt be playing tug with that - or at least I hope you're not - until he finishes teething. If he hurts his tooth or rips a couple out getting caught on toys on rods you'll ruin his bite. Get in close and use your hands he's too young for that stuff, you should also start having him used to playing tug in close contact to a person and you build the focus on the toy.

I have two, take a look at the marketplace in Off Topic or PM me. Full leather medium to large breed.

puppies do not require a correction chain, you should be teaching the puppy that you are the best thing on the planet. Puppies are foundations, you should be teaching them to be focussed and letting them play. incredibly wrong. These are tools, not fix its as your sentence makes it out to be. Check chains and prongs do not automatically stop the dog pulling - many dogs still pull quite hard on these tools. If that is the case then it is a dog-owner relationship problem not a chain problem. You use these collars as a tool WHILE training, not just to solve your problem. Some dogs do require corrective aids and check chains are very useful in shutting down drive quick smart. I use them and they have an application especially since pinch collars are illegal here. You would be suprised that if a dog is immediately pulling after having the chain taken off it probably pulled all the way through the chain as well. You dont get perfect heeling to tractor pull by the simple removal of a collar. Midol I know what you mean - dogs will start pushing the boundries at certain ages and can make you think 'why did I bother'. Having said that I found minimal changes to pulling during hormonal periods. Have a look at how you walk etc you will probably find minor holes in your behavior and training that the dog has discovered and exploited when its at its turdiest They can be a pain cant they, the rotty is currently thinking the best game in the world is woofing at the back door then running off pretending he didnt do it you have to wonder

I would get the puppy to a vet fast. Any swelling on face/throat should not be just left go find someone who will take a good look at the dog. You dont want to run the risk of it swelling further and the vet closing or being unavailable.

make an educated decision on what protein level you want to feed. Orijen is already a high protein food and you are adding extra protein on top. EP kibble has a completely different ration and content so dont chop and change. I feed only RC dry food (switched back to only this) at breakfast and give chicken carcasses in the afternoon, 3 different breeds all doing great on it.

having a seizure and having something like congestive heart failure are two separate things. I dont understand how you can have a dog on this medication and not even ask what is wrong with your animal?