Nekhbet

you have a small fee knocked off for a larger one charged - not the same and rather a good ploy from a marketing standpoint - clients brain thinks 'ooh I save X' and in fact how much do you get charged. Nothing against the vet but you are not getting a 'money back guarentee' or a 'saving' of any sort. It should be like her operating for free because anti-biotics didnt work. Dont just swipe all the pieces off the chess board because the game isnt swinging to your way Midol. smart marketing there - prove you deserve a refund. Rather por in my books.

geez and its hardly a situation related to this discussion is it well she would have no reason to re-charge the consultation fee for the operation as she has already done a diagnosis and plan of treatment. Hardly the same as giving a money back guarentee for ones word Midol.

what a vet gives your dog a course of treatment, it doesnt work so then it gives you another consult for free? Or are you getting the check up to make sure the antibiotics are working for free and its a 2 minute visit? I wouldnt really trust a vet that said 'oh we'll try this and if it doesnt work get another consult free'. To me that shows you havnt done a thorough job in the first place. And yep I've worked as a nurse before and dealt with all types of vets. Midol if you want agreeance with you maybe explain yourself clearly in your posts before just getting angry. Anyway I thought you said the last vet you saw was 'weird' because she told you your pup was growing too fast.

well thats OK then. I mean its only puppies and kittens that suffer in pet stores. If someone wanted to be ethical they would start their own store NOT go under the PP umbrella company and pretend they have nothing to do with the whole puppies and kittens in pet stores thing.

crap. then your vet has no confidence in their abilities. Strength in your convictions. I wont give guarentees. Then again I wont take on dogs that are out of the scope of my experience and abilities. If a person has provided a service then you should pay a fee. Buyer beware, its up to you to scope out the experience and training method.

thats OK ... as I said, after a few generations - no. That would be impossible since the dogs would randomly interbreed and only through extreme human intervention do we have the breeds we do today. It would also be survival of those with the right shape, drive and survival instinct.

c/o Kelpie-i

I just need a clarification on what they mean by in its present form? pure definable breeds or are they talking about personality.

if you print screen you are better saving them as a JPEG file - email it to my address below and I can post them for you if you like my photobucket is working

do you have an image embedded in the word document

one client had a quote for $500 - for ONE session! I find that insane, I want to see the dog walking on its front legs after the hour for that price. talking to the trainer before committing to the money is the way to go as well, or look at the website. Although many sites are now fairly vague on what methods and successes actually occur.

I dont know anyone around here who offers a money back guarentee on their services. You are paying for their time as well so technically they have provided you with a service - came to your house, analysed your dogs behavior, given their reccomendations etc which is what you pay for technically. If I see the dog, cannot fix the problem (havnt had one yet) my policy is not to charge for that initial consult but to find a specialist that can help them and refer them on. Usually we discuss first before I arrive what is going on I also dont do blind visits. ETA actually I charge slightly more for the initial as I spend longer there, we have a good discussion and try some techniques that will be implemented. Ongoing sessions are cheaper

I tell my clients that I can provide them with the guidance and start their dog off on the right track but if they do not follow my suggestions then I will not keep providing the service as the dog will not improve. I also tell them that it can be hard, that it can be disheartening and they will feel like giving up but i'm only a phonecall/email away. The ones that want to put in the effort usually have no problems following my instruction. It is owner dependant. Yes sometimes you have to change your tactics but hey its a living creature with a mind of its own. At the same time if they expect me to wave a magic wand and stop their dogs trying to kill them or each other with NO effort on their behalf its not going to happen.

I thinks its going to become a degree soon ... with all the 'terms', theories and such you'll spend more time with your nose buried in a book then training dogs. It can never replace personal, good old hands on experience though frankly I know what counts for more.

how about we take the midway. I think Midol means that a dog capable of working by running miles pulling sleds and not showing signs of suffering from any conformation fault (obvious or not obvious) is right for breeding. Its how dogs were bred before we introduced x-rays and hip scores. If the dog moved well, did its job at peak performance it was bred from. Breeders used to be, especially of working animals, rather merciless and thankfully so it helped the breeds survive the test of time. Dogs up in the wild countries that have survived for centuries in their original form did so by the healthiest surviving the conditions and humans breeding them together. I think HD is also becoming prevelant because we are a little less ruthless these days. We accept higher hip scores, we will fix whats wrong instead of just culling it out. We also grow our large and giant breed pups on concentrated diets that encourage faster growth, we encourage and seem to like a heavy body condition as well. ALso lack of a job has kept a few dogs breeding that probably shouldnt - yes it does as a pet but it couldnt do its original job in its present condition so *pfft* out of the breeding program. Now, as long as it can walk about and the x-ray scores fit within the recommended guidelines its bred from.

actually Africa have their own range of wild canids that range from pack hunters to scavengers - so the felids are not the only hunting force in Africa. * Side-striped jackal........(Canis adustus) * Golden jackal....... (Canis aureus) * Black-backed jackal ........ (Canis mesomelas) * Ethiopian wolf ...... (Canis simensis) * African wild dog .......(Lycaon pictus) * Bat-eared fox.......(Otocyon megalotis) * Cape fox ....... (Vulpes chama) * Pale fox....... (Vulpes pallida) * Rüppell's fox....... (Vulpes rueppellii) * Fennec fox....... (Vulpes zerda) There is always a place for the canids, every continent has (or had until we wiped them out) them in one form or another. Oh and slightly OT but how is this for convergent evolution? South America - Maned Wolf African Hunting Dog notice both are fine structure, long legged, large ears - one is south american the other is african

if this was true then how do we explain the proliferation of feral dogs in Australia? Dogs are not such weak creatures we believe them to be they are a lot tougher then I think many give them credit for. I think genetic disease and encumbering shapes would be the first to die as we have bred them to be mildly 'human lifestyle dependant' but quite a few would survive. Its not hard to see since many farmers have their stock taken by ferals - I think they would evetually make the connection that the animal you pull down when you're hungry should be eaten. Hunting breeds, some guarding breeds, LGDs etc would probably start to vanish from random interbreeding between breeds but I dont see why suddenly every dog would be useless and die. As for no heirachy .. eh then why do dogs find the need to fight, dominate and assert themselves over other dogs. If they had no need for pack structure and heirachy then technically in an environment we provide with food, shelter etc they would have no need to squabble over resources, resource guard, hump, mark territory etc. Look at village dogs, wild dog groups etc they will gladly open a can of whoop ass on a subordinate member that dares pinch food, or other will move back when a certain member moves in for a feed. So then what is the gist of the theory? We simply make friends and become on par with our canine companions? That giving rewards is simply like us 'paying' the dog as we would get a wage and is not a matter of the dog seeing us as a leader/higher pack member? I'm clinging to my old fashioned theories :D I'm the youngest fossil around maybe but I dont see why a 'pack' has to mean a group of animals that hunt together and share the meal.

a whole wonderful subject here. Bad training, weak nerves, lack of leadership etc can contribute to this problem (and can be quite rattling when you are on the receiving end of one of these dogs too) IMO you dont have to be the human perception of 'dominating' (gruff, harsh, etc) to be the dominant force in your dogs life. Control the resources, be the leading example and why can you not be a dominant influence?

the fact they breed for quality, not quantity. They breed for the breed not because they have two dogs and decide they need some extra pocket money. They spend money on health tests for their dogs and provide you with backup support. BYBers dont and wont because its not in their financial interest and most WONT know how to fix these problems. Most of these questions you ask are usually ones people would direct back at their breeder, and would be assisted. There is more to a puppy then a vaccination and a worm. Many people here dedicate their lives to doing the right thing by dogs so dont get angry when they make a comment about you not waiting for a puppy from a reg breeder.

Yes Erny you are right, I should have clarified. Yes I mean that a dog that doesnt turn to any leader figure it just takes it upon itself to do what it sees fit in the situation with no control from the owner. eg - the typical SWF ball off terror that has its owner screaming 'no no no' and dog has decided 'nope bugger you I'm taking charge of this situation how I see fit'. lack of predictability then pops up for the owner and you get 'oh he's never done that before' (even though you probably saw it building months ago but you see what I mean from the owners perspective)

there seems to be a bit of this happening lately. Dont like it. Wont go to them, and they standardise it way too much to make it one size fits all. I went back to my old vet (who mum took our old GSD to about 10 years ago) he's still in the same tiny 2 room clinic up the road, best bloke you ever met and cheap as chips. I know who's looking after my dogs from now on.

welcome to the world of dogs .. I have a 15 month old Rottweiler, $4000 and counting on vet bills (dont ask about the food!) RC is excellent food and stick to it. At this age 3 meals a day would be better but if you cant you cant. give the pound a present and donate the Bonnie bag for the christmas homeless doggies That big bag of RC will last you ages, I used to go through a 15kg bag a fortnight

I think you can, I would have a different set of commands for 'work' and 'play'. You dont want the dog accidentally grabbing the decoy somewhere 'innapropriate' as for dogs that can only do sch/ipo under certain conditions - bad conditioning and training on the handlers behalf. If you want a Sch dog it needs to be stable and follow its commands (as you would want your working sheppy) When i got my Malinois I took her EVERYWHERE and by everywhere I mean trains, escalators, lifts, city, country, beach, traffic, etc and even played games in the Melbourne CBD. Worked a real treat, she's happy to snap to attention whatever else is going on now

dont think its something thats set in black and white. Remember its dependant on quite a few factors, can even change day to day. ultimately I aim for me at the top and everyone else listens, no dog making their own decisions on how to handle situations and encounters I dont allow dogs to scrap over things, tell each other off (they can play and tussle etc) or pinch each others food items. In fact dogs that push the point have privelages, and occasionally dinner, taken from them for their behavior.

I dont like it, it caused my Rottweiler stomach cramps and vomiting - common side effect apparently. They dont need a bandage (mmmm oozing wound bound up for a couple of days is a recipe for infection to me) and we simply gave a long acting Meloxicam injection just before the animal woke up. Every dog was happy and in little to no discomfort by the next day. Well at least no one rang complaining of requiring more pain killers I think its a big marketing ploy frankly.