Nekhbet

yes you have joined the dark side You are now officially a Mali Nut mmmwwwaaaaaahahahahaha trust me, call me 5 1/2 years into the future and tell me it;s all been roses ;) I love her to bits but they can just get on your nerves every now and again ... and yet we keep going back for more and more there is a new condition .... I think it's called MaliMasochism ... the overwhelming desire to be around working Malinois

nope. I cant see any aussie weims being able to cope with it at all most I have seen do not have the temperament at all. Considering they are not bred primarily for it I would think the ones that are doing it are the flukes of the lines, of course I could stand corrected. oh yeah they eventually grow out of that ...well kinda. Depends on what you teach them too if you teach 'quiet time' they will settle. Mine can be happy to go a few days without structured activity but more then that and it's super antsy in the pantsy Mina is in season at the moment anyway so she's being super suckenois as we call her ;) Mina is like that. SHe will only sleep if we sleep (and hence she will actually stand there falling asleep on her feet but still looking after me) or doze when we're alone in the house and she's checked it all out. One noise though and she snaps into action

*pokes her malinois who is currently sprawled on the floor in a stupor* hear that .. you're meant to be on the go. go! I'm being stared at severely. I think that meant 'try that again and I will go'

love_da there is also Kelpi-i on the forum or my signature has my address but I have to be booked in advance for travel

I believe they are secret service dogs? yup they are trained but to another level eta if you wanted a personal protection dog those mals are way above and beyond anything you need.

or like me on a really dusty floor and I just slid like it was glass, despite wearing hiking boots quite a picture no amount of telling me to hold my position really made a difference that time ;)

nah the bigger the better. I love my Malinois but I love my bigguns more now I may branch out from Mals when I have some more time later I really love PP work. BRT is another I want to try, as well as a CAO/Caucasian Just because a dog is huge doesnt make it that hard to handle. If I can cope with 60kg on the end of the leash what's a few more Kg's ;) @ Aiden

they will take the defensive more then the offensive like the Mals, hence the front teeth biting and 'nipping' behavior. F off, you've been warned instead of being attacked by a flying Maligator who wont let go I'd love to try a Caucasian or CAO in protection training, only if it had a stable temperament, strong nerves and the right temperament. I'm sure the prison system wouldnt say no to a dog of that size breaking up the odd fight and keeping the inmates in line.

was that the ones I showed Kavik? Caukaski Ovchars: excuse the moronic decoy in this one CAO compare the behavior of these to this: Malinois

I would say that is a dog with either limited confidence in how to handle the situation, or has been whacked before and knows what comes from a frontal attack. A dog that goes straight in, especially for lower limbs as well, does have quite a bit of confidence to go head on. A dog that will circle is sizing up the risks, not 100% in its ability to make the bite and hence goes to a less confrontational position, side/rear. Another thing you will see sometimes is when a stare is broken between the person/dog the dog goes in for the bite, usually on the side of the face now facing the dog. Not enough confidence to have a go when being stared at but turn away and the dog is not as ... mmm intimidated is not the right word for what I want to say (sorry have barely spoken english for 2 days and now I'm all over the place )

what was the question I think it got a bit lost

most untrained dogs will not behave to the expectation of the owner. If it does like the little Dacchy well fabulous you got lucky. I do agree with their stance. I wholeheartedly support Jeff and I will not hide the fact I think he knows a heck of a lot more then most people on this forum when it comes to dog training. I keep writing it, obviously you're scanning and not reading my posts so I'm not bothering. I cant draw a diagram for you to simplify any further either. Empty carts make the most noise Rhaps and you're rattling like an old van on a gravel road. The fact you stated that simply purchasing a breed that is known for protective tendancies is the 'next best thing' shows it as well. What if that one cannot fulfill the role? buy another? Or that one well hell we have to get another? and another? until one finally fits the bill heavens above, if you want a dog that does a job you get a proven dog. They make great pets and the OP can have the confidence in her dog should a situation arise. As for you Rhaps calling people names because they do not just bow down to your flawed and frankly uneducated posts despite the fact we have practical experience in these matters is rude. We have every right to an opinion, and why not allow people to understand what PP dogs are actually like. You seem to have a vendetta against protection training, the only reason I can think of to warrant your behavior and immature language.

and you can get off your abusive high horse missy. As for reiteration you seem to not understand my points at all. Oh well. The statement was that you cannot rely 100% on an unproven dog in a threatening situation. Quite simple really. You can rely on the reaction from a trained dog. That is the difference. Not that an untrained CANNOT offer up behaviors, but you cannot guarentee the behavior, that is my point. The OP stated she did not want 'attack trained' which meant she maybe does not know what the training and dogs involve. Many people do not. Maybe if she actually met a few PP dogs and saw how they lived in a family home she would change her mind and think it is a good idea if she wants a dog that will behave predictably and for her own piece of mind. I was also giving examples where the notion that PP dogs are all high drive nutters is far from true, so to say that they cannot fit into family life or they are 'over-kill' is frankly untrue. And your statements of this show your true lack of experience with the subject and the dogs. Again my point is about predictability in the dogs behavior, guarenteed performance in a situation and a dog that is stable, well trained and fits the profile of the OPs expectations. seems to be a theme in these dogs, the more training the less they want to do

Just to clarify for everyone else, a PP dog does NOT need to be generally high drive and high maintenance. I have seen a few that are happy to laze about all day with you at home, go for the odd walk but apart from that just roll over for a tummy scratch and snore on the couch. I know one man who has an ex german police dog (GSD) who he imported recently. He lives in a small unit and the dog is happy to spend the days with him going wherever he goes, or just hanging about. He doesnt froth and pull fences down at anyone that walks past, he barely cares that you knock on the door. Break in and you will get a surprise though. I'm sure there are many more PP dogs wandering about then you imagine, you've probably met one and not even realised. These dogs are MEANT to be calm, quiet and bombproof, and able to live in the average family home. We are not talking military grade hard headed high drive dogs we're talking PP. A dog happy to live with your family but protect when required in a controlled manner. PP is not schutzhund. It works with similar yet different drives. Same goes that a schutzhund dog may not be a good PP dog. There is a big difference between a dog trained purely in prey drive and a dog tipped over into defence/territoriality. Different completely.

Because you write with huge holes in your knowledge, which shows your practical experience in training and handling PP dogs is limited - none. this especially. There are varying degrees of trained dogs and most are better trained and more reliable then the average pet or sport dog. I have 2. They are perfect pets and come everywhere with me. Void. The OP was posting to look for a dog that would protect her if an incident like this happened, which to me is NOT the role of a 'family pet' as you put it, it is the role of a protection dog. You now expect more then companionship and hence you need to provide your dog with a necessary set of tools to adequately perform it. DOLers seem to take a dim view on protection and seem to think these dogs cannot function as family pets. I guess that comes from living in a country that mystifies and victimises it. By the way she already owns a GSD, how many more 'protection breeds' does she need? The point is if you are going to rely on the fact the dog is an X breed alone to protect you then you are simply deluding yourself. As I stated as well PP training does not mean manstopper, frothing at the mouth dangerous dog (which by the way they never are) they are well balanced, highly trained animals that behave predictably which IS what the OP wants. The dog may never take a bite or bark at anyone in its new home but the owners will have reliability which is what counts, not practical examples of tough mean dog every time someone approaches. again you have not read. I said . Also you do not know if your dog will then become over reactive after the fact and the next scenario may be a kid that scares the dog or a disabled person that confuses them. Aggressive responses towards people ESPECIALLY LUNGING AND BITING is not something you allow a dog to take upon itself to decide when to do. Yes OK shite happens occasionally in life and you deal with it the best you can when it does but as I state (again) my comments are for people who walk around with untrained dogs thinking "yup they will protect me if push comes to shove' and drop the leash like the OP did Most of us are not just protection sport people, we've dealt with real life situations as well and trained dogs for them hence we may know what we are talking about.

mums pom refuses to chew anything and has just had a dental. She will keep up the brushing and its about the only thing that will keep that dogs teeth in his head. Just a baby toothbrush, the dental specialist recommended electric for the back ones

So you're happy arguing about things you obviously know little about. Jeff doesnt have to specify which tasks and he doesnt have too. Those of us on here who have experience with PP training have a good idea what it will be so what is the problem. Why does everyone have to justify everything to you on an open forum? RHaps you are playing merry go rounds with your 'argument' so let me make it basic. - getting an 'aggressive response' as you call it, from your untrained dog is not something to be necessarily happy about. Many dogs, after incidents, cannot cope with what has happened and hence their behavior changes usually for the worst. - you can buy protection trained dogs so if the issue is that people dont want to 'dedicate their lives' they dont have to - the POINT of the training is to provide the dog with a coping mechanism and a learned series of behaviors for these situations. I think anyone that simply purchases a dog, raises it with no training then relies on it to be a guardian (saving the LGDs which are meant to be this way) is frankly sometimes bordering on just cruel. - I never said all dogs have equal protection drives. If you are going to RELY on your dog to PROTECT you, you do the right thing and TRAIN IT so it CAN PERFORM THE FUNCTION PROPERLY, SAFELY AND IN A WAY THAT IS IN THE DOGS LONG TERM INTERESTS. You dont want a dog that then pisses itself every time when in a similar situation because YOU relied on an untrained dog to do the job of a trained one. This was what made me post in the first place. This untrained dog is expected to perform - perform what rhaps?? a bark and hold? FFS. The flip side of this scenario could have been a post that said 'my dog attacked a man and I couldnt pull him off and now I'm in a world of legal trouble'. Untrained dogs expected to do ANY protection behaviors be it even bailing up and barking out in the street is NEGLIGENT on the owners behalf - and the OP was IMO dropping the leash and expecting a result. You dont have to fully protection train a dog to have a guardian but you do need at least control and temperament.

wow what did I miss in 2 days. Rhapsodical for something you show you know little about then general perceived notions you sure have a lot to argue about. This thread is becoming another car driven by the backseat drivers. No dog will be scarred for life FFS. It's easy to see a dog that is not right and you end it there, make friends to show it was just an act afterwards and the dog gets on with life. Adult dogs being traumatised are more times owner perpetuated problems unless the dog has absolutely shite nerves, even then there is ways to rehabilitate. I think people need to understand that yes, your dog may put on a show - just like the teenager who has done some karate lessons may try and defend himself in the street - he may try but when it gets serious he'll get his arse kicked. The difference is how they come out the other end. A protection trained dog treats it like the real deal, it knows how to behave and it has been through the paces and knows what to expect from an encounter. A swift kick by an intruder will send most displaying dogs scuttling and peeing themselves, whereas a trained dog will not back down as its training has given it a conditioned behavior to the scenario. Two of my dogs have been physically attacked by intruders (one hit over the head, the other had a hind leg gashed open) and both are fine, stable and still friendly to visitors as their training conditioned them to be. And no, I would never purchase a primarily show line dog with the hope it would be a worker. You want a worker you buy from proven workers not just because it is a gsd, rottie, dobe etc. Many members of working breeds cannot step up to the plate anymore and that's a fact. If you want a dog that will DEFINATELY protect you in any situation you buy a trained dog or one of the more primitive/LGD breeds still from proven workers (But as lilli said dont expect to have control like you would the more traditional guarding breeds). The logic is not that hard to grasp. Saying that I have seen some nervy, woeful examples of LGDs that could barely hold up in fighting the maggies for their dinner let alone protecting you from intruders. A fearful reaction from a human can illicit a guarding response from most dogs. Have that same person confidently walk up to the dog brandishing a stick and see the difference. Most tuck their tails and go 'SHITE IT DIDNT WORK MUUUUUUUUUM HELP!'. That is the difference and THAT is what you are relying on not to happen.

excuse me, what standards? BYB rotties (oh and by the way, I have one which I rescued) dont always look ala typical rottie but are still 'pure' for lack of a better phrase. I just asked a question if you actually knew what her breeding was or if she was a 'guess' as sometimes done.

if the dog barks at a person and they feel threatened they have every right to go to the council and complain. Even better if the ranger visits and your dog is behaving the same way. In some councils jumping at the fence and barking can be a reason to give you grief. I'm not saying its logical. It does exist particularly when a dog feels stressed and you taught it to bark it wont look very good to the 3rd person.

I guess because everyone likes to think their doggies love them so much they would protect them to the death. Not true. And it shows a thorough lack of understanding as to what a protection dog actually is if you prefer a dog that takes it upon itself to decide to 'protect' then to have your dog 'attack trained'. It is not attack training and I resent it being called just that. Personal protection, security dogs etc need a LOT of work, obedience, control etc and I tell you what most of them are a hell of a lot safer then the average pet dogs people have. I know what the dog in my hand will do, how it will react and that I can turn it on and off, then a pet dog that suddenly has a go at a stranger who may mistakenly move in a way that the DOG perceives threatening. Many disabled and elderly people move and behave in weird ways, do you want your dog to decide to attack them too? That is what you are wanting in your dog, the decision. You will never know what your dog does unless you train it too react X in situation Y. Fact of life. Teaching a dog to bark on command, and teaching it to bark when it feels uncomfortable is two different things and can open cans of worms you might not want or expect. If your dog barks at a person and the person complains you open yourself up to menacing or even DD slapped on your dog.

this is ridiculous. 1) you relied on an untrained dog to 'protect' you. Why should the dog put itself at risk at all? It goes against most natural instincts 2) if you want a guarenteed dog that will protect you have to buy a trained personal protection dog. 3) I wouldnt be owning a dog that took it upon itself to decide when to behave in a menacing/dangerous manner I dont know why people make 'suggestions' there is no guarentee unless the dog is trained. Most breeds these days can't even fathom having enough natural instinct to do what they were originally trained to do so dont bother listening to 'oh get this breed/that breed etc'.

#1 where did you get him from? Have you contacted his breeder for advice? #2 where does he sleep?

If she is having problems controlling her drive start some schutzhund bitework now - both as an outlet and as a control exercise. Teach her she ONLY bites/plays on command and teaching things like the bark and hold is an excellent exercise in self control PLUS learning to be vocal when she finds her target. If you simply try and extinguish it then you will be confusing her down the track.