Nekhbet

she ususally does get all trimmed up she's just a little overdue and I dont have clippers here with me to do it. Is very pretty when she's all clipped up properly we've all been doing trick training together It's hilarious, my two in a drop and her not even reaching their heads standing

she's had a go at Diesel so he's just lost interest and Mina just wants to tear apart her bag full of squeaky toys. She is the cutest toypoodle EVER though OMG someone getting super couch cuddles tonite!

I know poodlefan Unfortunately I have to give this one back on Tuesday but I can pretend I'm a poodle person for a couple of days at least *sigh* This is Cherry Lee and she's about 12 months old she's sleeping over for some training and doggy dancing basics

*maniacal giggle*

I do private consults only, and I do a dog obedience school on a saturday at Elcho Park near Lara. I do travel

why are you having to sell a lesson? Dont tell me you are getting no refund and paid all upfront.

COGG are a pack of morons. They let puppy farmers perpetuate, do little about educating the public, providing for responsible dog owners etc. I just forked out $75 for two entire dogs to be registered. WHat for? Tempted not to at all I see nothing for it. And if they want my dogs desexed they're free to go in and drag them to the vet themselves if they can. All very well to say a dog has to be but no one around here enforces the laws we already have, no one stops BYBers or puppy farmers spreading ill tempered, poorly bred dogs about. What will the law do but hit us responsible owners. And frankly you cannot force me to surgically invade my dogs.

hypro products are firstly grain on the list and DO contain preservatives. They're also cheap and has the smell of sawdust (we had a bag explode at work). Just cheap extruded pellets. meat by products are not meat. They're all the other parts of the animal including feet, feathers, guts etc. Up the raw content and add lamb flaps, chicken carcasses, meat offcuts, pet mince etc and a good dry food as a base. Meat loaf as well isnt really weight lifting comparably. If you want weight you need to feed good quality ingredients and whole foods, not just grain based fillers because they're cheap.

considering how many types of things fall under the term training collar I think that too is abit silly

yes because 'tight, constrictive facial apparatus' was already taken I suppose

You have a point. An example I am dealing with a terrier at the moment who has leash aggression. Let him off he's a different dog but on leash he is a macho man I corrected him for trying to start his usual BS, then showed him the alternative behavior and rewarded the hell out of him. If he passed a dog and gave me focus he got more rewards and was made a fuss over. If he tried to go back into aggressive mode he was corrected and we tried again, he got a chance to gain a reward on his own and decide if having a go at that dog waaaay over there was really worth it. PP methods failed, he was called permanenly aggressive and asked to leave the old club. He has gone from a ball of fury to wagging his tail, nice fast obedience and you see him making a decision that reward is better then trying to bite the other dog and getting a correction. Anxiety and excitement has gone right down to a calm, relaxed, happy dog who can now learn faster because he is CHOOSING to focus and work for me. I gave him clear options, made it black and white for him which made life a lot easier for him to cope with. Something like capturing and free shaping in a dog like this for even basic obedience would have been a further catalyst for unruley behavior - he's not happy, he's not calm, he's not in the right frame of mind to learn. Adding an aversive made it clear to him and his recall from a group of dogs is also fabulous, he runs straight back and sits for me with a big smile.

isnt that the long way round the short track? Why not simply apply an aversive so the dog not only gets no reward but sees there is a consequence to the action which further decreases any rewarding factor in the behavior, then show the alternative wanted behavior and highly reward that. And by reinforcing an unwanted behavior are you not risking making it more appetetive and maybe becoming self rewarding to the dog, ergo harder to then extinguish later on? Not all dogs are great problem solvers and thinkers either, some continue the behavior with or without direct owner reinforcement or simply cannot nut out whats going on without being shown. I would consider something like that to have an element of self reward in some dogs. A bit of food or a toy is not always enough to overthrow what the dog sees as rewarding. So if rewards are difficult do we then start deprivation in order to get our goal?

staranais that was so funny

no depending on the ingredients and meat content they are different. RC is higher quality then eukanuba, slightly oilier and smells better.

The point is they learn everything first THEN specialise. You dont just go into a specialisation and decide to miss the rest because you dont want to deal with it. No PP trainer gets it. Corrections are not a whole way of life. Training should be overwhelmingly a positive experience. But in some instances you need corrections to make the P+ more effective. How difficult is this concept to grasp? Come one the same could be said about PP people. Let's not learn about anything else lest we taint ourselves with the evil that is corrections and aversives. Let's warp what is actually considered an aversive to suit an ideal. Great. It taught a dog a few tricks, did the dogs all have massive behavioral problems before? Did they go from trying to tear another dog to shreds to playing happily and calmly of lead? This is what this is about, not trick training. As for the trianers of today, lets look at the people who revolutionised guide dogs, military dogs, police dogs, S&R, detection etc. I see them as a higher inspiration and lesson then someone who teaches generalised obedience or doggy dancing.

but remember it's totally OK to call P+ abuse and all of us who use it are inferior beings out to harm dogs.

Delta says they exist then say no more. NDTF give you examples and training in all of them so you can see what it actually is and the effect on the dog. Clear now? Or we still going to tra la la for another 10 pages

frankly I dont know how anyone who has every seen two dogs interact could believe it. Or at least question its validity. and the wolves in the documentaries are hamming it up for the camera

poodlefan you better be passing the smelling salts if you're going to post such shocking opinions According to Delta book wolves do not use positive punishment, everything is done through body language and posturing. They never fight or do body contact apparently. I was looking for the part where it said they had an in built treat pouch but I couldnt find that part. that doesnt take a genius to figuire out. But you would also know a life of coddling and no consequences has long term effects as well. All creatures need to go under a little stress in order to learn coping mechanisms and how to deal with stresses later on. You cannot wrap your dog in cotton wool for fear it might get a little stressed, or anxious, or upset. And if a low level aversive is enough to send your dog into lifelong trauma then there is something seriously wrong with it or you as the owner are mediating fearful behaviors. this is why I take my dogs to many consults. They learn so quickly off each other and the other dog gets a prime example of how to behave. Especially good for young, boundryless dogs or social wrecks who have trouble coping. Spend long enough with a dog that doesnt give a damn and you see the little light bulb click of 'wow maybe that pays off better then how I act now'.

I think sometimes we underestimate the resilience of dogs.

I think that answers itself. I dont like it I wont bother learning about it properly.

not everyone has time for counterconditioning, especially in something like a 2 hour private session - and no one wants to fork out a couple of hundred dollars plus to be handed some food and a clicker then told to sit there and condition the dog until it likes it. To me if you have to countercondition then the tool is constantly applying some aversive to the dog. Put a check chain, DD or prong on a dog and none will think twice about it. They will think twice about messing about when the correction comes. It's fast and clear, an all or nothing for the dog. Yes not every dog needs one but I prefer collars to head halters or harnesses especially for pullers or lungers. I think collars are becoming a bit of a lost art, they are there to help train the dog and direct it. People now seem to think they're just a tether point between you and the dog. If the check works to the dogs threshold then it doesnt matter the size. I see small dogs take a correction that would be more then enough for a dog 3 times their size. This is where you have to have the knowledge of equipment and dog behavior to know what equipment is right for the dog. you can take a week of constant training or you can do it within a couple of hours. I know what I prefer.

you cant see it, you can't prove it but you just know. Corvus I thought you more educated the that. again using aversives is not the only way. They are part of the overall system. They indeed help some dogs accept and learn and make the R+ more effective and the owner feel happier and more in control.

but in real life it is. We are not talking about what you do with your own dogs. That is a biased look on the world. Your own little world will always be a perfect Utopia. Train a few hundred other peoples dogs and tell me your ideas and training methods achieve the same results - you are now dealing with individuals who do not have the same expectations, needs or ideals about their dogs as you do. You cannot always say to them 'thats the way he is, it will take time'. Some will hand you an ultimatum - fix it today or we can't take it. Show me results today or I'm going to go mad. Some simply will not have the skills to keep up with the methods you use anyway and find some positive punishment useful for them. do you actually understand the point of the four quadrants? They are not 4 different methods of training. They are in reference to Operant Conditioning as investigated and most famously defined by Skinner. Then there is Classical Conditioning, most commonly known after Pavlovs dogs. http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wa...ndex%20set.html have a good read of this please it will explain the four quadrants to you in a simple manner. This has long been a Delta ideal that the four quadrants seem to be 4 distinct methods. I know in their book they try and brush the other 3 under the table. Punishment by definition is not what the layman thinks of as something like physical corrections only. Do you withhold treat/toy if your dog does not do the required behavior? You are technically punishing your dog. Do you every tell your dogs off at all (ie apply an aversive stimulus to prevent the unwanted behavior reoccuring) then you are positively punishing your dog. Life is not all happy happy joy joy all the time. Real life and real dogs show you that.

It's all very well saying using no positive punishment will fix an aggressive dog. I'm yet to see it. And I'm yet to see a Delta trainer turn a growling, lunging snarling mess into a calm dog purely through positive reinforcement means. I hear it but when the living example is put in front of me it's not actually 'fixed'. Or I get a phone call to come help fix it myself. I did that this week actually because the owners were on their last shred of nerves living with two dogs who could fly at each other at any moment after three aggression consultations from a so called professional. One dog was so wired it chewed the fence until its mouth bled. But hey, better then a check chain! I seem to see 'fixed' as having many interpretations to many people though. Maybe my standards are too high but I dont consider success or leaving the client until the dog is relaxed, happy and the road to change is started. Make the whole experience as fun and positive as possible. But if a correction is needed to stop an outburst ... darn well give it before a vet gives it a permanent one. I dont know from this is sounds like you have a problem with the philosophy and you don't totally understand it. You know those of us who use positive punishment are not all Koehler clones ready to beat a dog into submission. If you don't have a full tool box you cannot build a house. Of course you need to be balanced. ANd you need to consider what a dog needs on an individual basis. Someone who constrains themselves therefore cannot honestly and morally say they can help train or behaviorally modify every dog. I also see it rather sad that people say that a 'purely positive method' or 'reward based training' cannot harm a dog long term. Well honestly I beg to differ with that.