Lablover

Just a thought everyone. I do not know if you have already got it covered.

Dogs localise well. What I mean even from baby pups they have a favourite comfortable spot.

In training we tend to visit the same areas or say two or three, the obedience club, our own grounds, and maybe a local park or two (and practice).

Possibly you are localising your training to not enough new grounds with further distractions etc and the dogs are all out of their comfort zone at tests.

Often as a result of only training and then testing to a few known areas you are not stretching the dogs adequately.

I just mention this in passing as the rule of thumb in retrieving training/self testing is to test what we have taught in at least 6 different areas.

Often by repeating a failed exercise in the same area, we as handlers feel better but the dogs have not really learnt anything. We try to set up the failed concept, in another paddock, simplify the concept - say a double or triple blah blah blah) and repeat.

What is a back tie and how it is used?

I presume for frustrating a dog.

Can I throw an extra spanner in the works and add the next topic CONTROL. part.

With my youngsters I am amazed how they "learn" straight sits and sit as far as I can throw a retrieving object (normally a paint roller at first, due to its softness or rather my aim, LOL).

We then moved to a carpetted area, which lucky for me (from a cleaning prospective, LOL), Stamp again delivered with no problem.   

Gosh, you're daring!

So he was gentle with the egg, but he is not so gentle with the bumpers? Am I right? Or have I misunderstood something?

It would have been interesting to perform the egg test when Stamp was at his worst.

He is fine with bumpers nowadays. I did test him with empty plastic soft drink bottles to hear/see when he actually started to bite down also.

BTW, Julie - Happpy Birthday for yesterday.

Kavik and I are in the chat room if anyone wants to join us? Discussing using drives.

Julie you made me get an egg from the fridge to try. The things we do!!!

Sensibly, might I add, I thought it more prudent to try the egg test on a hard surface. No problems he delivered it gently.

We then moved to a carpetted area, which lucky for me (from a cleaning prospective, LOL), Stamp again delivered with no problem.

We moved outside to our front paddock. Being an intelligent person (well sometimes/rarely I am so) I fought my natural urge to throw the retrieving object, but left Stamp on a sit command and proceeded 150 yards away. I felt rather silly placing an egg, but no matter, I did. I sent Stamp to the known area and he delivered the egg intact.

It was coated with slobber by this time, so when we returned to the house, I cracked the egg open. As Stamp was enjoying his treat I wandered back inside to type my report, he left half his treat uneaten, heeled by my side, in the mistaken belief more retrieves would be in the picture. He is currently mouthing my hand nagging me for more. Off I go to appease him some more.

Thanks for making my afternoon.

Were your ears burning on Sat afternoon? ;)

I had a lesson with Steve and he was telling me about you and your dog.

No my ears were not burning yesterday. Actually I felt normal (if I can ever be considered normal as I am so possessed by my dogs, LO). I am glad I did not feel knives in my back either.

Its funny, before my husband convinced me to buy a labrador, as our first dog, I put all labradors in the same basket, so to speak, lazy, boring and a little silly.

I cannot help wondering those who read this thread, who do not own a highly motivated labrador or breed, added to the fact that they know nothing about the standards of high level retrieving trials, think my problem was just a small one.

It is just so maddening that this dog thinks his life depends on retrieving.

Oh damm. I was hoping for some input regardless if you all thought it was a pile of bull droppings.

Remember if you do reply I do not take opinions negatively or badly, I am learning all the time and how I love it.

Even though some other ideas I have leant on my travels, I do not agree with, it starts me wondering why a certain exercise works on a particular dog. Stamp does everything else well and tries so hard. ;)

Hard mouth around the world in retrievers is considered uncurable. I am trying desperately to prove the theory wrong and frankly K9's exercises had wonderful results in my case. Thus I hold K9 force in the highest regard.

PJ:

Do you hold the ball, then command 'sit'? Or do you command 'sit' while the ball is still moving?

K9: bring the ball high & to s atop, pause a second then command sit, the pause will cause an untrained dog to jump after the ball, & not be able to get it, to a trained dog, it raises self control in drive.

LL: K9, I was going to ask these same questions when you were available in Victoria in a couple of months. Can I add my questions now or should I wait patiently? I hope I am doing my young dog and friends dogs correctly?

For example to PJ's question above: Is PJ moving the ball correctly with swift level movements to make/create drive, or jerking the ball around? Is she asking for the sit too quickly? Or as you mentioned in a prior post, does PJ need to concentrate on just building drive and forgetting past obedience which can retard a dogs drive?

Edited: Another question before I too leave to go training- is PJ encouraging and praising/petting her dog as it is being motivated in drive?

I might ask, from how long had he been marking birds, then how long had you tried to fix it, then after starting the prey drive drill, how long was it until the all age where his mouth was good?

How long: Stamp had always displayed, looking back in hindsight and without rose coloured glasses, the tendency to roll retrieved objects in his mouth. The mouthing would be displayed, at its worst, at competitions with the extra stress ??and excitement. I had (and still) beat myself up on why why why he displayed hard mouth, which first manifested itself by freezing - not giving up the retrieve readily - from memory twice at trials. The freezing was "cured" easily, but obviously I did not look at the whole picture as one BIG problem. I wrongly assumed or rather dreamed LOL, it would settle in time, he as matured. He also until about a year ago would become sexually excited at training and at trials, so much so that I would have to wait until (OMG how embarassing) until he ejaculated and settled.

Length of time I tried to fix it:

Again in hindsight (which as such all very well NOW), I feel I ignored the first subtle signs. He would slight hover over a retrieve especially noticable on when the retrieve itself had been conceptually difficult in water.

At training his returns seemed to be better. His body language was certainly more relaxed and he did not display those manic eyes when delivering.

Shortly before heeding your exercises he had been at his worst (so I had tried to fix the problem myself for 2 weeks) The day will never be forgotten. I had arrived late, and virtually just grabbed him from his crate and ran. I came home that day shattered as I thought I would have to wash him, or give him a long rest possibly concentrating on obedience trials for a while.

I found by the second day of any competition he would definitely be more settled. I also found by getting him off his peg/or from his crate, at least 20 minutes before running he would be more stable.

It is all terribly frustrating as I will never know what I did as a trainer to encourage this habit. I know I used to send him for repetitive drills very quickly as he was keen to "go" again. I also know I let him snatch treats from my hands in the house, which I also stopped and encouraged "gentle".

From the time I started your exercises a period of 11 weeks had passed.

One day I am going to learn how to multiple quote, heck for that matter a single quote!!!

K9 question to me:

Before training this way, did you believe that better results could be gained (if they were of course).

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I am a little confused on the question sorry.

Do you mean training in drive or using force methods?.

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After my experiments with my older and young dogs, I developed my own crazy test (copied loosely on Schutzhund trainer videos - Bernhard Flinks).

By doing so, I think my screening of future puppies has merit, not of course testing water attitude or marking ability, both of which is vital in higher competition stakes, but testing of drive when young.

BTW, a dear friend whose GSP is very hard mouthed who I showed the simplified drill version, was found practicing them by her caravan before a trial. Her dog dropped every bird that day. Rush rush rush. Why do we all try to rush?

Before I continue boring everyone, and having not even completed Steve's first question, am I making sense?

I typed a huge CONFUSING response and just before I hit the the reply button, became caught up on the telephone and lost the lot.

K9: Now I have some questions for you....

Since working with Stamp, & now I believe that you train your puppies in drive, whats the difference results wise?

As I was using your suggested exercises/drills with Stamp and having pondered on any negative effects by trying them (and finding none) I also used them on my other older dogs.

Stamp to my delight, after the first night was returning to me, even after mutiple sends (at short distances 40 yards- 50 repetitions -probably more, we were having such a great time together it could have been 100 LOL) and recalls, like a dog possessed. He was jumping up at my face not in aggression but in um er happiness/drive. He is a normally a very happy dog that night I could not help notice the extra strut in his stride.

After a couple more days on the exercises he continued to improve, his grip on the dummies became gentler. The remote dropping of the retrieve was an issue at first, as he had been trained never to drop any article. The remote drop was "trained" in our loungeroom separately with no distractions and no retrieve involved. I slowly introduced this concept in the yard. As you suggested, I did not focus on a perfect front finish which also took a few days. He anticipated the fun bumper, and popped (stopped) on the way to (known) blinds, I would either wait him out or reinforce my back command, so his popping resolved.

After a couple of days I fell over and injured myself in our front paddock - send offs at 100 yards in length each - BTW Steve - do you think by Stamp having time by length let him think about his actions more?(co incidently while doing the exercises LOL - dangerous stuff) and as a result could not try this new brilliance in our normal off site training paddocks, which may have been the best for Stamp as many repetitions could be applied to resolve past habits.

I will leave a gap here, but am happy to return to our progress, if you and others would like the breakdown of the following 6 weeks.

At Stamps next All Age competition, (remembering that he had damaged every bird at his last trial 2 months prior), he was great. He continued to return to me like a rocket - many times like he had done in training where I feared he would and did crash into me. His mouth continued to be stable. His manners at the starting line were a little loose - (he did not break but certainly crept), as a result of his extra keenness (ANOTHER SUBJECT please Steve - gaining extra confidence???) but have been working hard for balance again. I was VERY+++ happy as I had been told, by others, his mouth problems would not be curable.

During my extended period on crutches I had the time to also use, as mentioned, your ideas on my older dogs even though they had good soft mouths and returns. I loved seeing the dogs different responses and I think I learnt a lot by having other dogs.

All their attitudes which were good prior improved during training. When confusion resulted in a drill or exercise I was trying to teach, it was wonderful to take them away from formal training, move to an area in a paddock, create/make drive and regain what I call a suicidal desire.

The pups. Wow. I have never been a big on corrections. That being said, it is easier for me as I start with baby puppies and bad habits have not been formed. I used food as lures and to keep focus in the past. Since training in drive with the pups, by me spinning in circles and training basic obedience it has been interesting to say the LEAST. The pups already knew the concept of sit, but having the pups in drive and the pups knowing, for their good responses, how quickly a retrieve would be added had them begging as never before, and they were keen prior, otherwise I would have washed them. Boy did I become dizzy so many times by spinning in circles, having three pups!!!!

I will continue my post, on a new thread, as I am scared to lose what I have typed so far. Maybe everyone is bored?????? already.

Steve,

As you aware of my dogs (or at least the one you helped with his mouth issues), and the standards I require, what relationship does "willingness to please" have with training?

How I love training in drive especially starting with young pups. How I also wish I could put into words how I train differently nowadays, not so much what I require but how I do IT.

Thanks Poodlefan and FHR,

To say I am shattered, is an understatement.

Her vets have banded together and as mentioned are discussing chemotherapy. They are very open with their views as they know me well. I will fight for my dogs health at every opportunity, money means nothing. But two dearly trusted vets have suggested chemo may prolong her life but they question the quality of life.

I just cannot believe this has happened. Everyone was so sure this tumour was going to be benign, but I had reservations. Although she had been well until a week ago, she did not seem "right". She had the strangest sad look on her face, which I did not feel was related to the obvious eventual huge mass.

I cannot believe it.

The tiny mammary lump, which in such a short period of time became terribly inflammed which was treated with antibiotics before surgery last Friday - resulted in the loss of three teats as the mass was so large by that stage, has been diagnosed as metastatic carcinoma.

Chemotherapy is being discussed with the experts.

My darling girl

Chris,

Correct me if I am wrong please, but it sounds like Riley is an outside dog?

Does he receive a walk everyday and it might be a good idea, if you have not already done so, to find a good obedience trainer.

With having more information Riley problem may be one of no manners and plain young dog excitement and no manners.

Hi Julie,

I am confused by your post, nothing new in that for sure, as I am commonly in a state of confusion.

For a start how did you begin training in drive without distractions? Did you start asking for control while encouraging drive close to you with a ball on a string or tug toys?

Give Joey an extra pat from all of us when you get home.

In my case both chiropractors were also vets.

I certainly do agree with "spelling' time, not only physically but mentally.

I suppose we should consider fitness and diet etc, but also warm up exercises, stretching too before intense exercise.

Anyway dogs never cease to amaze me how stoic they are, especially the high desire ones.

I posted this in another forum:

Last weekend it became obvious that one of my labs (six years old) had injured herself.

In hindsight, which I feel guilty about, she would intermittently hold her left back leg up when standing. I thought cramp was a possibility so in the 5 times over an 8 week period (my dogs are nearly with me 24 hours a day), I would massage the leg and all seemed fine.

When I arrived home Sunday night after a weekend trial, where a judge had noticed a slight skip to her stride, she displayed more obvious pain. I gave her a dose of Metacam.

On Monday she was treated by my own vet (who diagnosed lumbar sprain), with injections of corticosteroid which included anaesthetic after which he manipulated her. Her left shoulder musculature was also less than her right.

Naturally, as I am so keen to spend my husbands money, I suggested plain radiographs and CT scanning. My vet did not think this warranted yet.

I have never been terribly keen on human chiropractic treatment (sorry chiros).

Long term chiropractic treatment has been suggested. Should I insist on CT scanning? The vet also found a small lump in one of her mammary glands (heck I missed that as well, and I check once a week).

BTW I also got a second opinion from a well trusted vet. Paranoid me!!!!

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Yesterday we returned for further evaluation. (I also took my other two competition (b and c) labradors).

The labrador with the initial problem, had a little further manipulation and can return to training. A miracle, indeed???

Dog B passed with flying colours except for a slight pain response to his left foot, which was thought to be in the heeling phase, as a bruise injury. .

Dog C had a slight pain response when her lumbar spine was checked. She was manipulated. No further treatment required.

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The reason I have posted this thread, is to remind fellow dog lovers with competition dogs not to ignore any signals, no matter how small. The reason why your dog does not instantly obey a command may be a physical reason.

Human athletes, racing greyhounds and competition horses are regularly checked so it goes to say the pet athlete should warrant the same care.

I have certainly noticed today, a lovely looseness in the problem labs stride. She is jumping for joy, so to speak - which I am trying to discourage. Whether she remains so, has yet to be seen.

Hip/ebow scores had previously been performed on the above dogs. No cruciate injury etc was of concern. Blood tests are performed annually.

Better to cry than kick a tree or tyre, like I do at retrieving trials, LOL.

FHR,

I have only seen two high level agility competitions, but I greatly enjoyed them. I I actually cried as the dogs (and owners) looked so happy.

Congrats and good luck.

I have read this thread, which has given me a headache. All these new catch words. I admit I am getting older and could only really understand K9 force. All this theory means nothing unless you can be put to practical use.

Today I was in our front paddock, picking up some firewood, the labs flew by chasing a couple of rabbits. Only by a good training program which included negative reinforcement (correction), did they immediately stop the chase-and sit- with a quick quiet command.

Nothing like a nice square front finish.

Most of all, start at very short distances and slowly build. Have your hands in the middle of your chest area, making sure the lead is held in both hands. Praise/reward for good responses. You may need to gently nudge your dog with either of your feet. Do not make a big deal of this as many younger dogs tend to have lazy sits. If the dog does not square, take a step back and try again. If your dog does not sit straight away that is fine, as the most important part is coming in with a good attitude.The sit can be trained later.

You could use a couple of chairs to create side barriers. Start with them wider as some dogs may not be as comfortable as others. I like chairs rather than walls, fences etc as the angle and location can be changed easily.

Having a good recall in place is important as a dog may feel it is being corrected for coming rather than not sitting square.

Running backwards holding the lead to your chest helps too as the dogs normally are already "fairly" straight.

Edited: Grammar again. Lordie why do I try to give advise when I am tired. Sorry.

He bleeds from his penis, only when bitches are in season??? Gee, please clarify?