Lablover

Yup thast right Ll trouble is a lot of people become clinical and think it is a replacemnet for praise and interaction

yb

Um, er, sure.................but I have also seen many a time, praise given when totally unwarranted, in my humble opinion, which may/can/does confuse the dog.

Many a time, I have praised my dogs, and I think, in reality, it makes me feel better, not the dog.

But then again, I have Stamp, who I did not praise/to release tension/drive enough. K9 force?

I will have a go at your question. Why not, its Friday and my husband is away.

X bred - scent hound on both sides???? They follow their noses. In many arenas this would be cherished and valued highly.

Rescue, who knows its history.

Small steps in my humble opinion will have to be performed, bearing in mind its genetic capabilities.

K9: one thing I love about training in prey,

When the dog is conditioned, this means that subconsciously, he WANTS to complete the excercise.

He obeys commands to make this happen, this also means, his mind holds him back, when he lets go, he goes into high drive & completes the task, which is your task...

Its not you trying to make him do something he doesnt want...

I am confused, as per normal, AGAIN, what you mean K9 force? My fault entirely, not yours.

How does a dog subsciously know what he/she/us want?

Yogibear,

I do not know much about the clicker (or obviously how to quote multiple posts, LOL) but from what I have studied it is used as a marker, Pavlov?

I am such a selfish person, I want to move to the use of praise/encouragement now!!!!!!!!

I have found many people who are trying to encourage prey drive, do not praise their dogs enough and they technique is poor (mind you I have only three videos of the subject, LOL).

I have seen a few police dog "prospects" being tested nevertheless. But overall my education is limited.

Regarding custom dogs, again, my eyes nearly fell out of my head with the praise/ encouragement/rewards, the handlers were giving their dogs.

I suppose so, but my dogs generally have no aggressive behaviour. They like me, are lovers not fighters.

I think I know a lot about training gundogs, but am very aware I know virtually nothing on, for example, protection/police dogs.

Edited: Opps a daisy, your reply might have nothing to do with my dogs, sorry.

K9: that does help, but the main point as far as mine is concerned is that he has no play drive for the other dog, this means he see's them as neutral & this is nice for them as they dont get overwhelmed by big GSD all over them, they have to try & get his attention & he can put them into pack drive fast, so they are chasing him etc etc..

My dogs have absolutely no interest in playing with other dogs or between themselves really when I think about it (as I did when I read of dogs romping in another thread).

Yesterday for the first time in months I took my older dogs to a local park, not to train but for time out, they were so focused on me (bearing in mind they knew I had a retrieving article in my back pocket), I felt sorry for them not having the joy of a free walk.

That being said, they are not robots, as in retrieving trials they are expected to hunt out of sight without direction from the handler.

Sure. It reminds me of the line you cannot make silk from a cows ear.

The secret is HOW to manipulate/train them I suppose.

I try to watch them at everything.

I am tingling already!!!

I could type and type and type what I love about training in drive, but will not bore you all, or ramble on into confusing myself, LOL.

I think the reason the higher prey drive a dog has, the better they focus and the faster they are easier to control, is because dogs are PURE AND SIMPLY are self satisfying.

They do what suits them - then we manipulate them to work for us.

Just like wolves and other animals, I suppose, when they work/hunt in a pack/together.

Erny,

Fancy the cheek of you returning to the topic!!!!

I make sure, all early experiences are with dogs I know and trust, so I cannot answer your question in full.

I would not make a fuss with a youngster. But from baby puppyhold I have a secret "turn on" word that they cannot resist. (Which I voice cue to, with every baby retrieve). I might run away from the area saying it, and the pup will follow.

BTW, when I attended my first herding seminar, there were a couple of tiny working kelpie puppies, furiously circling the duck pen. I laughed and recognised the look and gleam from the puppies eyes.

V:

LL, my girl does that too, in agility & on sheep. Since we're making car analogies wink.gif , we call it idling!

K9: its not idling, its stopped with one foot on the brake, the other hard on the gas.

V:

I don't like to let her do it too much & try to keep her focussed on me, but some of it is inevitable. Do you think it affects performance?

K9: I think when the dog has not been taught to relax in drive, it deminshes drive, turns on nerves & this causes many types of fallout, weak grips, chewing dumbells etc..

Well there goes my attempt at humour...back to lurking I guess.

I'm happy to continue to call it idling & lucky for me, I don't need a strong grip & she will probably never see a dumbell.

And Yes Myszka, she moves well at least her body does, even if her feet don't .

I'm still interested in your reply LL. My comments simply were that in agility, I don't feel that her performance is worse for her IDLING, in fact so far it seems better. Does your girl do it all the time & do you notice a difference in performance?

Vickie,

Hi!! All my dogs tremble in excitement to a degree, but this particular bitch literally vibrates, LOL. When she achieves a stable sit, before marks are released etc she stops shaking and is focused on the job at hand. Between retrieves she is fine.

I do not think it effects her work. She is a lovely working dog. She gives her all.

Her litter brother used to ejaculate at training and at trials, until recently!!!!!! i am so glad that little problem resolved at about 3 years of age.

I cannot work out why one of my labs who has great desire, trembles with excitement when in drive (any drive).

Why wouldn't they? If drives excite them, then why wouldn't they tremble with excitement? Makes sense to me.

Yes, yes, yes, but..................there is thrembling and there is thrembling. I suppose it could look as though she has low nerves. I have no idea how to type my thoughts on the net. Hopeless case I am. Plus my 6year old is going to a drip tonight, for further tumour removal tomorrow, and I am beside myself with worry.

Back to puppy thread. I still think you see the signs with a youngster, their focus, that added puppy naughtiness and extra something (spark?)

Purplejulie,

It may be an idea to start a new thread. To tell you the truth, I cannot work out why one of my labs who has great desire, trembles with excitement when in drive (any drive).

K9 force??

Not sure what you're saying Lablover

I have done the NDTF cert III in dog behaviour and training and the cert IV canine behaviour specialist. I've had dogs all my life but only been really involved in training dogs since I got Loki nearly 4 years ago. I teach obedience classes, but certainly wouldn't profess to know even a small percentage of everything!

Haven,

I am sorry for my vague post, nothing out of the ordinary I assure you.

When I think about the average person, (not yourself!!), on their views regarding labradors, they like to think of the breed as rather boring. When I posted my reply I was soaking wet as the heavens had opened and I had noticed one of our water pipes had become loose from a rainwater tank.

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To the negative posters, have you ever broken into song without music, when training at a high level?. I am not ashamed to say I have broken into tears from time to time at training when my dogs have tasted success after marrying up concepts, and I am no cry baby. If the dogs fail which of course they do from time to time I never blame my dogs. NEVER.

I can break in tears (damm dogs I would hardly ever cry if I did not have dogs, LOL) at local obedience clubs when I watch the dogs confusion. There is nothing worse than a confused dog and angry trainer.

K9: Lablover, how do you always make threads turn into nerves & drives? fofl..

I do apologise. I become side tracked, in my love of training in drive, with drive, out of drive, returning to creating drive when a dog looses focus, testing drive in other peoples dogs, the applications of different types of drives, etc etc etc.

The above is the short answer. LOL.

It is better than chocolate, it is better than rain on a hot day, it is better than wine, it is better than winning on the races (well, maybe the fellow who bet a million on Diva).

Training in drive is better FOR THE DOG, would be an easier answer I reckon. I have never been a fan of compulsion training.

I will stop adding to this thread, but I love it so............ I must learn focus and control myself!!!

Haven,

You are a dog trainer with experience right?

Thank you for not replying and saying WTF, labradors, right................? Every lab I have seen is a dumb dumb head, LOL.

Haven and others,

I agree, it depends on what we want to achieve and more importantly how they translate in what the dog is capable of.

Our first labrador was a lovely hunting dog, but did not have the drive for high level competitions. She plodded through CDX and NRD. We loved her anyway and she stayed with us until her death at 15 years of age, a few weeks ago. My husband had to take two day off work he was was so upset. But if I had the experience, (I think I have nowadays, LOL), I would have washed her to a pet home, when she was young. She was a great snake detector too!!!

Training a dog in prey drive, who has the desire, is like driving a Ferrari. (Mind you I have only driven such a vehicle once, LOL, and the damm thing took off so fast I nearly ran into a tree).

Again this topic is great. Wait till we start discussing control in drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you play this for 3 minutes, 3 times per day 7 days per week for two weeks, you will have a dog trying to capture the item or you will be 100% sure that you wont be using prey drive.

I agree, but would I be bothered, no. If it took that amount of turn IT ON, I would have grave doubts regarding the future for high level stardards.

Back to the topic at hand, or at least discussing young pups, LOL, one of my puppy tests is having the litter chase a rag on a long rope. By the second or third day, as soon as the rope is produced, the eyes come alive, and the fun begins, and ends when I am too tired to run any more. I then move to an unknown area with each pup, and observe them and begin the rag chase game again.

I have a poo test too, LOL. Strange one for sure. Bizarre actually!!! My best dogs (in leve of desire) when pups and in their run, as soon as they saw me, in there excitement when seeing me, would pick up the first thing that was available. Yucccccckkkkkk.

Haven,

I should imagine it would be like trying to push a rope up a hill.

One of my best females, who in not just my humble opinion, but by others, is what I consider sensitive. Frankly is that poor nerves???. I worried at one stage, early in her training on hidden retrieves, she would look up at me not out. I already knew she had a high level of desire, so was not concerned with her work ethic. She tries so hard.

I stopped blind training for a few days and reverted to simple drills. Sight blinds etc. Also the next time she glanced up, I knelt down besideher and deeply stroked her, whispering its OK girl, its OK.

She has been fine since.

I love how much these dogs have and will continue to teach me about dog training.

Amen!!!!

My respect for dogs, especially the ones who are so full of desire to work, whatever their requirements, is a wonderful gift.

K. Yeates,

Welcome.

I was wondering how the long term effects of the canine contraception medications are proving?

I have been reading the thread again, and am really enjoying it.

Thanks again K9 for bringing up this topic.

Regarding the window of opportunity in pups raised as potential working dogs, there have been various studies around the world, in leaving pups with their dams till much older than the normal (6-8 week) rehoming, but with human contact of course.

Conclusion with one study:

The finding that simply observing trained mothers performing a learned task had a significant positive effect on a pup's ability to perform the same task 3 months later, without any further reinforcement, has a disrection application to current working dog training practices. This is at least true for the task in this study (location of narcotics). By taking advantage of a period in ontogeny when pups are apparently sensitive to the acquisition of maternal behaviour, learing can occur directively. Our data shows that observational learning taking place at any early age can augment or, in the case of some individuals, even replace the usual time-consuming operant conditioning techniques used in the training of adult working dogs, as well as increased the proportion of dogs whch show an aptitude for the particular task.

Definitely am....started working with drives just over 2 years ago and haven't looked back. Dog and owners love it and accelerates the training!

Kelpie,

What breed of dogs have you had the most success with?

Some dogs I have performed my little experiments on, had limited levels of prey. Naturally I blame myself, thinking I was not doing something right, as the owners felt confident that their dogs had a lot of prey drive.

Off subject, sorry.

K9 force have many pet owners have you come across, who think their dogs are perfect candidates for training in prey drive, and are not?

K9 force,

I was wondering if you could expand on nerves please.

For example, stable responses with new stimuli.

A few high level retrievers I know, are fantastic working dogs, but have poor reactions when in new situations.