Lablover

CTD, I have been wondering, why you asked this question. Just interested. I am be off completely, but is it is relation to your young border collie? The two washouts (had good instincts) but were not suitable for high level retrieving trials. Good as hunting dogs. But I am nooo hunter. Having problems with the editing. Sorry, so hot, just returned from training. Dogs were not stressed, they could cool off in a small lake.

Regarding sheep dog trials, which have always interested me, are the sheep "paddock/basically unhandled sheep" except when sheared. I recently saw a few demonstrations, and the sheep seemed more trained, than the dogs. Mind you, these were at public venues. Years ago I went to a working dog trial and was very impressed with the whistle control. I see working dogs, at retrieving trial sites where our tests are held, and all seem well trained.

Just so I am clear, give me a few examples. If you have time.

Sorry, washed dog means placed in another home. Both, owners keep in contact with me, and they were indeed very happy with their well "trained" dogs. Both have owners who allow the dogs to be with them, 24 hours a day. One of my main requirements. Earlier signs? Easy....not enough desire and poor water attitude (for my standards).

Crash Test Dummy, Oh gee, now I am really going to bare my soul. Both were well health tested, ie hips, elbows and eyes and I did consider keeping them as future breeders, but did not think it fair, not to devote concentrated time with them. The first I washed caused me a lot of tears. The second was marginally easier. Marginally. Both had poor training attitudes (when the going was tough, big multiple swims, hard going, as in cover (large rocks), but were very easy to train. The easy to train part (as in general obedience they were outstanding IMHO)has always interested me a lot, as my current dogs, I feel, have excellent desire but sometimes due to their momentum (desire), their brains rattle in their heads, and it takes them a while for the "grey matter" to catch up. Both washed dogs had great eyes for marking. Memories were very good. The placed dogs were 18-24 months, but in hindsight, I could see the signs much much ealier. I wish sometimes I got into fish. Fish surely must be easier to train. if I have not detailed my reply in full, let me know. Edited for spelling. Sorry distracted.

Could you explain further SM, and other poster, what you mean by yoyo? Remember there is always someone heavier. Balance IN TRAINING (what I understand as being a yoyo), is a frequently used word in retriever training, handling (most used for hidden retrieves -sitting to the whistle, casting our arm casts, left, right, angled lefts/rights, Backs) UNDER CONTROL OF THE HANDLER and the other balance is marking, where the dog needs to be relaxed to find and "hunt" the bird which will eventually include multiple marks. Balance for obedience, as Pauline Hanson, famously said, please explain?

That is for sure. I am currently training 4 of my dogs. Plus a few others, with only obedience trial requirements. I wish I had never found retriever trials.

Shoemonster, I think of myself as a fairly well informed dog trainer. Am I a good trainer. Sometimes LOL. I think I am very fair to my dogs. This includes corrections, which I use. Lack of effort of an educated dogs, irks me no end, but I think I am educated enough to see the difference between lack of effort and the dog not being well conditioned/trained (to what I require). Am I an excellent dog trainer No. Your line "Yeah, I know his mistakes are due to me teaching him that they are ok to do", certainly rings, a bell, for a lot of us. I am going off topic. But bear with me, recently I had the delight of training with one of the best, if not the best, successful US amateur trainer. A judge, had set up a high standard test, which was to be used for All Age dogs (dogs in the highest level of retriever competition), which could be broken down for the mid level dogs, (restricted dogs), and one part of the test to Novice dogs. I took one of my novice dogs, down to be run/trained. The test was what we call a cheaty water run, across a river, with high banks, and many fallen trees. The trainer looked at me and said No, you are not running that dog. I was aghast. This dog is not a cheater (will face water and cover well) This dog had just two weeks ago won its novice test, and the "trial" test was harder than this training test. The trainer explained to me later, that sure I would have taught my dog one of two good things, but also taught it possibly 5 bad habits. (as this particular dog is not educated enough to handle (cast, stop on the whistle, not cheat the shoreline) well, with arm and whistle control. I learnt a lot that day. I hold my head to shame, thinking of my past errors. And this is only one example. She picked on the so called DOL wonder dog Stamp too. He has improved also.

Shoemonster,sorry, if I seem to be flippant. I do not mean to do so. Start by rewarding for only excellent responses. Again I apologise, but have not observed your dog. Most of my dogs mistakes, and they do make mistakes, heck humans make mistakes, are due to MY training.

Goodness, sorry if I sounded abrupt!!! I phase out rewards, still expecting high standards.

Congratulations for breeding such a clever dog. Did the owner do all the training?

Just as much training?. Wow!! I think my husband often wishes he could rehome me. Yes I have rehomed dogs in the past. Luckily to great homes.

Stubborn dog eh?? What is a stubborn dog, LOL, I dislike human descriptions related to dogs. To be a good trainer, we (I include myself) need to learn to read our dogs better. We all hear dogs do what works for them. We cannot expect a dog to do what it has not been taught. Back to topic. Do you mean to say, EVERY time to command your dog to obey, you have bribed him with treats. Note, I feel there is a big difference between bribing and rewarding. I have all my labs in the house at the moment. I try to be consistent at all times. Sit means sit. Basic obedience. This morning, for example, I forgot I left one of my dogs on a sit, remembered 20 minutes later.......dog was still sitting. Where once if the phone rang, and I was distracted, this particular dog would wander and I WOULD ALLOW it. Bad inconsistent person I am.

LOL, that will teach me for having time out, from packing to leave for a trial, and visiting DOL. IT will be fun.

I have been in correspondence and telephone contact with Sharon P, who was another US trainer who travelled in NZ with Ric Smith. Greatly enjoyed her observations not only of the dogs but stories of their travels, tourist wise. My trip, is the result of organising another American trainer to hold seminars in Victoria, Western Australian and NZ. I will be fun.

Well thought out reply Working Setters. Personally I think, bearing in mind, even with working cocker lines, water attitude and the standard of our retrieving games, in Australia, it would be very unlikely a cocker would be successful at the higher levels. I am travelling to NZ next month and from corresponding with hunters and trialers over there, they certainly seem to have imported a nice variety of gundogs from England, for example. Looking forward to observing their dogs both field and retrieving.

More SARDA labs, to the RESCUE (sorry cannot help Thursday humour). Wonderful. Small world regarding MJ's youngster also!!!!

Best wishes and good luck with your future "working" labrador puppy. All lab puppies are full of mischief, the working lines normally more ......................fun???!!!! Extra extra extra chewing, extra naughtiness, extra extra extra. Besides normal pee and other messes. Crates are a wonderous invention. Cannot wait to hear this weekend if the mating has gone ahead.

Sure will. Now lets see, what is the time currently in Amsterdam (you stay away from any of those "naughty" shop fronts Tim!!) OK, its 6.21am. Tim, Off topic. Sill coming to the seminar 25th/26th/27th November, to see some other fun training?

Goodness, I am going to sound so boring by my short input by this thread. Probably as I train and compete for retrieving trials (which are so much more difficult than natural hunting, especially in the higher stakes) my reply may not make any sense........but here I go............... Its how a dog perceives, obtains, and achieves SATISFACTION. Some, in my case, who value birds VERY highly, as they should, bearing in mind their greatest gifts, genetic birdiness and prey drive, and may I add water attitude, can sometimes need/or require (for want of a better word) further satisfaction from a conditioned reward. The high prey drive dogs, can value birds too "much" and can LOL certainly count (retrieves required in a trial or obtained when training). Always keep them guessing (in training)...........so they never know when their satisfaction can be obtained. From a, say obedience trial setting, I would hope to achieve focus long after existing the ring. Condition the dog so it learns.......with patience, and good fous, a reward will eventuate. Change their expectations, just as we do in earlier puppy and young dog training. You (dog) do this for me, and I (human) will do "this" for you. This being satisfaction. Too many variety type rewards, which may have different values, is a poor way of rewarding good responses, prolonging satisfaction or obtaining conditioned results. Just like humans, canines do not do, something for nothing. They are in reality selfish........like some humans. LOL. Drives is a great topic.

Is there a link to the Susan Garrett seminar?

I do not think you are going to receive many replies. It may be best to telephone them yourself and ask for client references?? Check them out. Is it a private training establishment? Do they have a web site you wish to share with us?

Due to Erny's interest in being involved in Search and Rescue, she is keen on a labrador. She came training with me this afternoon, and due to a near disaster, with Yank, I am thinking about offering him!!!!! Damm dogs!!!!!!! I am NOT in the best of moods. Added: Erny with positive thoughts, thinks she will have her computer back, mid next week. Mother board of someorrather problem.

She is very excited also, as I have found her a puppy. Well, the mating is next month. Soon. BTW, my husband dislikes when I say the word soon. Soon for dinner. Soon for the garden. Soon for bed. Soon Erny will have a puppy.

Its fun. I do think a good technique helps and the dogs as mentioned in the past learn power and strength does not win the game. What about dogs who go into drive peak very quickly, and by doing so may be unable to learn as well/with a clear head, as less driven dogs. Obviously I have been pondering lately, LOL.