Amax-1

You need to be careful with protection trained dogs.........pets can bite intruders, but protection trained dogs in most cases are considered dangerous requiring an enclosure to house the dog away from people. That's why it's not a good idea to put bitework videos up on the internet of named dogs in the event that the dog is used for protection at any time. Not in NSW. How does the owner of a protection trained dog in NSW convince the court that the dog wasn't deployed to attack on command and that's the problem as the NSW law doesn't permit the use of dogs as a weapon. If it's a pet biting an intruder untrained in protection removes owner influence from the bite.

And in this country when having the opportunity to add Amstaff's to the list being essentially a Pit Bull, they exempted papered amstaff's so the "your breed is next" has already been tested.

The fact is, you can train a dog to walk beside you without a collar and leash at all, so for the most part these contraptions evolve from the motivation to make money not train dogs more efficiently. To be an effective training tool, it must have an on off switch and when off it resembles to the dog that it's not under equipment restraint and when it's on, the dog is under pressure of restraint from the wrong behaviour. Does the dog feel like it's off leash free of equipment wearing a harness or head collar in the right behaviour? A loose leash walk on a prong collar it does in equipment comparison :D

You need to be careful with protection trained dogs.........pets can bite intruders, but protection trained dogs in most cases are considered dangerous requiring an enclosure to house the dog away from people. That's why it's not a good idea to put bitework videos up on the internet of named dogs in the event that the dog is used for protection at any time. The dog is always a pet biting out of primal instinct to protect it's territory. :D

The general community see BSL as restricting a breed of dog that they can't be bitten by if they don't exist. If BSL was abolished and a child was killed by a newly imported Fila, they would argue had the breed remained restricted, the child would not have been killed by a Fila and probably would be still alive. It's a big risk for a government to abolish BSL as it's probably not anti BSL supporters who will cause them election defeat. Personally I don't see BSL as an easy thing to abolish from a political stand point? The destruction of dogs on appearance is stupid, ok check them out but if they pass a temperament assessment that should release them from concern IMHO

I say this sincerely to everyone.....don't ever fall for the lack of socialisation routine and blame yourselves for the incorrect raising of a pup who ends up defence aggressive..........it's a genetic nerve weakness in the dog, not the way you have raised it. Dogs of strong nerve and genetic temperament stability don't need socialisation at all as the world isn't a scary place in their mindset. Socialisation and environmental exposure in pups helps to mask nerve deficiency and better prepare weak dogs for urban living in a pet environment. Unfortunately not all breeders run off strong nerved dogs so socialisation of a pup is an important phase in raising but only because you can't guarantee the pup you have received is bred off stable character ancestry. One of my favourite tests is gunfire testing Labradors and Golden Retrievers and the one's who bolt, ask the breeders why they are breeding gun dogs on parentage who are scared of gunfire....you will be surprised No one knows whats wrong with the dog - therefore why should it be euth'd on an assumption, I always believe prior to euthing a dog there should be a behavioural assessment so you know what you're dealing with. I absolutely disagree that dogs in a domestic environment don't need socialisation with their environment. Although that's a whole other topic so best not to get into it here. I'm the first to say that weak nerves have become part of Danes however there are a number of breeders that also have their dogs never leave their property, we don't know what the deal is here. If the new owner does not want to work with the dog then I guess there are little options, I guess I'm just being optimistic. Hell, I'd return the dog and tie it to their bloody front door and kiss my money good bye > the dirty dead of euthing the dog is not the new owners. That's a shame Sas, because you are making allowances for weak nerve as if it's normal, it isn't normal in dogs bred on strong nerved ancestry. Danes coming through with weak nerves is due to breeders running off weak nerved dogs, they need to cull and top up their breeding stock with better dogs.

I say this sincerely to everyone.....don't ever fall for the lack of socialisation routine and blame yourselves for the incorrect raising of a pup who ends up defence aggressive..........it's a genetic nerve weakness in the dog, not the way you have raised it. Dogs of strong nerve and genetic temperament stability don't need socialisation at all as the world isn't a scary place in their mindset. Socialisation and environmental exposure in pups helps to mask nerve deficiency and better prepare weak dogs for urban living in a pet environment. Unfortunately not all breeders run off strong nerved dogs so socialisation of a pup is an important phase in raising but only because you can't guarantee the pup you have received is bred off stable character ancestry. One of my favourite tests is gunfire testing Labradors and Golden Retrievers and the one's who bolt, ask the breeders why they are breeding gun dogs on parentage who are scared of gunfire....you will be surprised

I disagree with that. A vet isn't liable for signing off a dog as environmentally safe, they are signing off on breed, so if they can't scientifically prove a dog is a Pit Bull and they need to employ a visual test which the Amstaff fits, they can't scientifically prove that a dog isn't an Amstaff to prosecute a vet for an incorrect breed assessment so they have nothing to worry about. It just takes a vet brave enough to sign a piece of paper and not hide behind lip service to free a dog unfairly subject to euthanasia by appearance. If someone had a dog fitting the visual description and produced a vet declaration as an Amstaff to an ACO, compliance would be more the nature of the exercise not questioning the vets breed assessment. An ACO can't seize a dog fitting the visual description when the owner produces an Amstaff declaration as ownership the dog then complies with legislation whether in fact it is a pure breed Amstaff or not? BSL is about Pit Bull restriction as the other listed breeds don't exist if they do it's a miniscule number, so perhaps it should be about freeing the Pit Bull from the list, not the abolishment of BSL? The GSD Club freed the GSD from the list when subject to BSL by breed promotion proving to politicians that the breed was safe where they consequently overturned the restriction. What people don't understand is abolishing BSL means the introduction of more supposed dangerous breeds and that will never happen.....the first one who gets chomped by a Dogo or Fila it's going to hit the fan big time......no one is going to abolish BSL entirely for the introduction of breeds that are not here in the first place to cause a safety concern. It's not only about Pit Bulls, it also about opening the gate to the rest on the list and who in reality is going to do this to appease a small number of anti BSL supporters versus the greater community? Someone told me about 5 years ago that a Pitbull breeder ran a litter off Amstaff papers.....not sure the truth in it, but the breeder for some time now has produced working line Amstaff's......bit naughty, but pretty smart legalising Pit Bulls from another angle :D

Nobody wants to euthanize a dog especially a young one in good bodily health but a dog must possess mental health also to sustain a happy life.......an aggressive dog in defence is severely stressed not much different than an old dog in pain. To let her sleep peacefully where her stress is finally relieved is an act of kindness to the dog in the same way relieving pain from an old dog giving their wings. It's a mongrel thing to contend with and have to do but for the dog it's the right thing to provide her with tranquillity. Aside from protecting potential victims of her bite, to live a life reacting aggressively from fear is not a pleasant way for the poor dog to live it's life.

Sadly this poor Dane has a major nerve issue which is genetic and the kindest thing would be to send her to the bridge. I would if possible chase the breeders up for an explanation on why they are breeding dogs like that too. In a pure breed situation we collectively need to pressure breeders running off nervy dogs......it's a shame to have acquired a nervy breeding prospect, but if it's not up to standard, don't breed it and produce more dogs of substandard temperament.

15 1/2 years old is the best I have had from a GSD who was a BYB from a pet shop in 1987. I heard a puppy yapping when working around a shopping centre one night....he was at the pet shop window yapping at my dog. First thing the next morning I went down and bought him for $150....what a great dog he was. Hips got him in the end although he was still reasonably healthy otherwise :)

So why don't their members who are legally empowered to free dogs from death row sign them off as Amstaff's and release them?

Socialisation programs were originally set up by breeders to mask genetic flaws in their dog's temperaments....a genetically sound dog doesn't need socialisation as they have the environmental strength to cope with new experiences and challenges with the natural confidence to deal with stress. The problem when masking genetic temperament flaws in training and socialisation programs are substandard dogs being bred on to produce the next generation. Fear periods in puppyhood and the like are relevant factors in suppression of unwanted behaviours but only in the masking of genetic compromise......great dogs don't need any of these programs to adapt into well adjusted pets........when we stop masking genetic flaws by suppression programs and breed from the best the dog world will be a better place. :)

My mum a Golden Retriever enthusiast and former obedience trainer and competition obedience entrant in her younger days bought her last Golden pup at 61. She was fit and fully functional and when her old boy passed, she bought another one as she had done as long as I can recall. She claimed this one would be her last given her age but his passing at 73 she lasted 5 weeks without a dog in her life and bought another Golden pup....actually a breeder friend gave her pup from her current litter. The pup was good for her, gave her a purpose in life, she trained him, walked him every day, nothing really changed although given her age she did things more slowly. At 80 years old, mum developed dementia and was commissioned to a nursing home....we took the dog and visited her with her dog twice a week. Although in her condition she thought the dog was the boy she had in the early 80's who was her last obedience titled dog, but dogs to mum were part of her life age didn't matter. She's 86 now and her old boy passed late last year and we take a GSD up to see her weekly. She tells us weekly how GSD's are not her cup of tea but interacting with a dog still sparks her up :) Myself, I am 53 and still actively train working dogs, but I wonder bodily in the future how long I can sustain the activities with high drive dogs?

Yeah......I don't use correction collars at all anymore when raising dogs from pups as drive techniques in training advancements well surpassed the old yank and crank regimes. Correction collars tend to work best with adult dogs ingrained in poor leash behaviours who lack drive to properly support motivational training techniques.

I have a pair of GSD's like that......one has to be geed up to work, the other geed up will flip his lid and end up wrapped around your neck......many a time I have copped a cold nose in the back of my head with paws around my shoulders :laugh: It took me about 2 years to fix that.......he was an absolute nutcase in a drive blowout. I somehow taught him a "relax" command that over time seemed to work. As testing as it is from a handler perspective, it's amazing how some dogs can accelerate into full drive so quickly from a relaxed state?

That would be my point - the hard corrections may work where as what I routinely see at dog club and elsewhere - allowing a dog to lean into a slip chain choke collar - just desensitizes the dog to the collar... I have just learned about "Opponent Process Theory" where the brain (of human or dog) when perceiving an aversive - has a hit of adrenaline "A Process" (eek what's that?), and then a calming "B Process" which counters the A process so the animal can think again. If you want to desensitize to spiders or fireworks - you expose a critter to just enough A process that the B process can counter it... and then the B process has a bit of a lag - so it is still in effect for a while after the A process has stopped so you get this kind of calming - which is how people become addicted to pain.. It's also how mind altering drugs - that used to work - lose their power over time. So your aversive has to be strong enough but not so strong that the dog either freaks out completely and shuts down and not so weak that it just learns to tolerate it. And a strong aversive applied for no reason that the dog can figure out - will lead to a crazy anxious dog (eg rubbing its nose in pee, hours after the event). And yes there can be problems with back chaining bad behaviour (aggression) if you're using treats to reward that (inadvertently). I've done that. Oops. But at least my dog is still keen to work with me. Allowing dogs to lean into correction collars is what you see most I agree and generally on choke chains they will coughing and spluttering, but the tools are being used incorrectly as the concept of a correction collar is to provide an on/off switch and the timing of the correction is done before the dog reaches the end of the leash quickly and sharply as a behaviour interrupter. You are absolutely correct that dogs getting used to leaning into correction collars desensitises them to the corrective effect :) The skill in the trainers ability to read a dog's character will determine the level of aversive for a given unwanted behaviour......the reason I shudder at the thought of just anyone readily purchasing a choke chain and letting loose on correcting their dog Corrective training is a skill and is often the best remedy for extinguishing an unwanted behaviour which in IMHO a "good" trainer will possess these skills to best cater for a range of unwanted behaviours in various types of characters.

Something greater than rudimentary obedience training........training in drive that type of thing to enhance handler focus I was thinking of :) Just to put it out there, the above is a common announcement from training groups who don't engage in aversive methods of training but in 99% of cases it's not true, in fact it's rare even with the hardest and highest calibre working dog for aversives to escalate aggression over extinguishing a behaviour. A reason they use harnesses instead of collars in protection training to increase aggression and not extinguish it by collar correction when the dog is lunging into a bite. I have however experienced this twice in 29 years of training working dogs once with a GSD and once with a Malinois who were handler aggressive adults brought about by misuse of an Ecollar. There is more chance of escalating aggression in a 5 month old pup by rewarding the wrong behaviour by the mis-timing of treat rewards than it is with a couple of hard corrections and setting boundaries for the pup to learn what it can and cannot do. The point is, yes there is a miniscule chance that an aversive can escalate aggression in some dogs, but the tendency for most dogs when experiencing an aversive is to shut down and extinguish the behaviour. Only 1% of dogs subject to an aversive to extinguish aggression will escalate, it's not the norm that motivational trainers declare is a likely consequence. Having said, the application of an aversive needs to be administered in a timely manner by someone experienced at the process in accordance with the dog's demeanour.

I second that with GSD World.......Warren's pups (as per the link)I have seen a few are generally good stable dogs not overly driven.

You put that well Kavik :) Mental drain in training is far more tiring to the dog than physical exertion. Some advanced training can make the world of difference in the general behaviour of a driven dog.

I don't support the abolition of BSL because it's all about Pit bull's which is a breed I am personally sick and tired of hearing about. Having said that, I don't support the culling of innocent dogs by appearance, if it's a good dog regardless of appearance it should have the rights to live it's life based on temperament testing. Typically anti BLS activists support their case by fingering other breeds and this I find extremely annoying top the point there is more chance of adding breeds to the list by their reckless highlights not overturning BSL....they are a dangerous lot IMHO. What they have done in support of their Pit Bull case is fingered working breeds....excellent, so they have dobbed in GSD's, Rotties, Dobes, Belgians and the like to free the Pit Bull......what's sort of idiots are we dealing with in anti BSL regimes I ask

Firstly is the dog a working line GSD? Secondly, I would take that dog in a heat beat for a working dog by his description he sounds like the makings of a great working dog :) What he is doing is trying to be 2nd in the pack behind your husband......this is common behaviour in a dominant male especially dribbling pee on the floor marking and getting aggressive if you wipe it up and scold him......I have one here who gets growly if you ask him if he's peed.....he did the same thing in adolescence and had a go at my wife twice in my absence This behaviour is a genetic by-product of the dog's character not something you have done wrong.....they just take a particular type of training routine to extinguish the behaviour and for them to learn the order of the pack......having said that, it's needs to be dealt with NOW as it gets worse as the dog matures until he bites you and you show him fear and then he runs the show!! The best solution is to hire a trainer experienced in working dog training......not commercial behaviourists, they are useless for the most part dealing with such a behaviour in this type of working dog. The dog will have to be rehabilitated with aversives to correct the behaviour for the best result and he's the right age to use such a routine, so the experience of the trainer is paramount to extinguish the behaviour quickly before it escalates. If you are in QLD, I would recommend Jamie Davies, Brett Ward, Robyn Thomas would be able to easily rectify the behaviour problem or put you in contact with someone experienced who can help resolve it. The dog is being a cocky jerk flexing some new found muscle...as I said very common behaviour from a young dominant male testing the pack dynamics, but is not pleasant pet behaviour to be exposed to or something easily remedied on your own if you don't know how to stop it. Dogs like that tend to be handler aggressive as they mature if the behaviour is left to manifest but on the bright side, once the dog knows his place in the pack, he will be fine as they adjust and accept their position quickly with the right training approach at that age :) I wouldn't recommend that.....a stranger handling the dog who he has no respect for could be the one he bites if they man handle him or yank him around on leash. You are best off using toys on a mouthy dog not treats as the primary reward....balls are good if he likes chasing balls.....you can redirect his interest in cars to balls...the working dog trainers who train in drive can show you how to accommodate this and change his focus. GSD's don't need massive amounts of exercise......a 2km walk and half an hour play in the yard a day is plenty.....unless you run one alongside a bicycle for 20km's you won't wear them out....a high drive one is like the Energiser Bunny....their energy is endless, don't even bother trying to get them tired, you will drop of exhaustion before them :D

You need to be careful with working line GSD's as some are not bred for versatility as they should be and some are purposely bred high in prey drive, high in aggression or both to suit specific working or sporting roles. Working line GSD's can be a handful of dog for pet owners inexperienced in this type of dog or not in a position for dedicating training at an advanced level. I have experienced many pet owners liking working line GSD's for appearance and colour, buy one and by 14/15 months old they can't handle them. Not to say this is the case, but just putting it out there for consideration. Show line dogs generally present dogs more suited to the pet market as many of the show line breeders are extremely skilled at selecting breeding pairs of stable character and temperament.......not that working line breeders don't, but what can be a bit unstable or extreme for a better word from a pet perspective can be a workability enhancement for certain disciplines. It's helpful if you know the lines and what they produce or if not, select a working line breeder who can provide the type of dog you are looking for :)

That's one of the greatest errors in the ideology of socialisation for a dog to learn the fun of unrestricted play with people and other dogs. The dog ends up with having so much value on other dogs and people, the owner in that environment has a massive problem at hand controlling their dog's exuberant behaviour actually created by free for all socialisation routines.

The Bull breed problem with attacks is down to the large amount of them bred by people who should be leaving the breeding down to people who know what they are doing as it's actually an art form based on experience and knowledge to produce good dogs of the right temperament suitable for urban living. It wasn't that long ago people were messing around with GSD/Dobe/Rottweiler breeding's and mixes producing dogs with crappy temperaments, short nerved dogs, fear biters and the like and although we can blame the owners of these dogs and some are to blame without question in the poor management of such dogs, but dogs of crappy temperament unsuitable for urban living place a massive strain on a pet home in comparison to owning a dog of good temperament purposely bred from sound proven ancestry. Great breeders don't spend 50K importing a dog and specific blood lines only to win shows or sell over priced pups......many do it for breed improvement and temperament stability by doing what ever it takes to source the right breeding pairs to produce quality animals. Whilst it's commendable that some owners of dogs with crappy temperaments have done a great job managing and training such a dog, if breeding dogs of good temperament and pet suitability was the primary factor in pups destined for urban living, these problems and breed targeting would be greatly reduced. There are many breeders of great dogs litter after litter in all breeds which doesn't happen by accident, that is they have the knowledge and experience to produce the type of dogs with the right genetic foundation to create joyous well adjusted pets.