espinay2

I guess if you picked it up in your bare hands and then touched your mouth without washing them in between either could result in problems . Basic hygiene principles apply when handling the faeces of ANY animal. Tom Lonsdale's press release was partly tounge in cheek (Tom is a vet - a veterinary dental specialist). You may want to read some of the info on the rest of his website: www.rawmeatybones.com . I note that you are in Canada and perhaps by your replies do not feed raw meat and bones? Feeding raw meat and bones is VERY common here in Australia (and is becoming moreso in the US and Canada as well as elsewhere). I have been feeding a totally raw diet for eleven years now and many more herabouts have been feeding this way just as long and longer. There are some very good and well referenced articles at this link that you may find interesting if you want to read more on the concepts: http://b-naturals.com/newsindex.php

Many people switch their dogs to raw at a later age, even after a lifetime of eating commercial foods only. The book 'switching to raw' may provide you with some guidance: www.switchingtoraw.com also see the following article by the books author: http://b-naturals.com/Jun2002.php Not a hard time - but a firm stool is not a problem and IMO much less of a problem than soft stuff that just plops out. Bone is good fibre. http://www.rawmeatybones.com/ChalkWhite.html As for staying in longer, faeces consisting of meaty bones/meat actually on average traverses the digestive tract in much less time (4 to 7 hours on average from start to finish) than food which contains grains (eg commercial foods) as they are much more easily digested.

Poos tend to be firmer, crumblier and have less smell. They tend to go white on the reasonably very quickly. Provided sufficient muscle meat and organ meats are provided as part of the diet (remember I said raw MEATY bones) then this is not an issue. Yes, the poos will likely be harder at times, but this is a good cleanout for the system. A little straining is fine. IF they are having too much difficulty though, just add a little more muscle meat/organ meats to the diet. Raw MEATY bones are not marrow bones. Marrow bones are hard weight bearing bones that are often left unconsumed by dogs/wolves in the wild. Much too easy to break a tooth on, particularly when artificial edges are created by cutting them encouraging dogs to chew on the hard bone rather than the softer joint ends. When provided as part of a regular diet Raw MEATY bones will only make her fat if you feed too much. Some types are certainly more fatty than others (you can see the fat - it is white and attached to the muscle meat), but just go easy on these types or pull some of the fat off before feeding. Some of the things you can feed as raw MEATY bones include: Chicken frames, wings, necks, or pieces. Even whole chickens or those cut in half are fine depending on the size of your dog. Lamb flaps, 'offcuts' and necks (whole, not sliced up except for very small dogs or cats) Beef Brisket bones, oxtails (whole, not sliced up except for very small dogs or cats) or other bones such as pieces of backbone depending on the size of the dog Turkey necks or other parts of the turkey if available Kangaroo Tails Duck pieces, quarters or frames Rabbit pieces or whole rabbit depending on size of dog (or cat) Pork trotters, hocks, necks or 'tails' (usually contain part of the backbone) Goat pieces or venison/deer pieces if you have them available

Personally I would be adding more raw MEATY bones (bones with a good cover of meat where the bone can be eaten as well) and organ meats (liver, kidney, heart etc) Olive oil is very low in omega 3 and contains only a little more omega 6 EFA's. EFA's are destroyed by heat (as well as air and light) so even the small amount of EFA in it will likely be useless if cooked (if not already compromised by storage in an opened clear glass bottle on a shelf). Olive oil can have its plusses and it is certainly one of the 'better' oils but it is not a direct substitute for fish or flax seed oil when it comes to EFA's.

Onions are really the only real no-no, and most others are fine in moderation. I would feed everything raw except potatos (they have to be pulped or cooked to be digested. My preference is to raw and pulped if you are giving them on purpose but if you have a few leftover cooked veggies, then go right ahead. Remember dogs are carnivores so veggies only make up a very small portion of the diet. Emphasis should be on leafy greens. Members of the nightshade family are best fed in small amounts, particularly if the dog suffers from arthritis. Essential fatty acids, in particular the Omega 3's are good. What you are after is the healthy fats. Cooked fats (fats subjected to heat) are not good so adding oil when cooking is IMO not the way to go. If you want to provide healthy fats in the diet, a good way to provide it is fish oil capsules. Personally I rarely feed veg - only when I have leftovers or want to clean a few veg out of the crisper. Veg is not essential for the dog and is perhaps the least important part of the diet - the feed it if you want but you dont have to part. IMO much too much attention tends to go on veg and unfortunately it drags peoples attention away from other much more important facets of the diet. It takes next to no time to feed my dogs. Admittedly I have been doing this for about eleven years so have my routine worked out, but for the average person with one or two dogs, once you get the notion that keeping it simple rather than overcomplicating things makes life a lot easier for you and often is better for the dog you are set It is of course a shift from the 'scientifically formulated' scaremongering we are bombarded with by commercial dog food companies to a different way of thinking, but once you make that step, it is plain sailing.

Don't forget rabbit as an option too. Lots of it around at the moment, although certainly on the expensive side. I pay around $10 or $11 each for a wild rabbit (from organic butcher or chicken outlet) which has the added benefit of not being subject to chemicals (unless they were eating in areas where it was used) or $4.50 for about the same amount of commercially raised white rabbit from a pet supplier (which would cost more than the wild rabbit though if I bought it at the butcher). The commercially raised rabbit has a higher fat content. I don't know how you are feeding, but the simplest way to do an elimination diet is a raw(BARF) diet. You can take the diet back to one thing only (eg JUST the rabbit, or turkey or roo or whatever) and feed that on its own for a few weeks. Then you can start adding things one at a time and watch for reactions before adding another. It is very flexible as you can add, subtract and see the effect of individual items rather than juggling mixes of multiple items. Some foods can also have a different effect when they are raw rather than when they are cooked. Sometimes (and this can go for humans as well as other animals like dogs) a food that can not be tolerated when cooked is prefectly fine when raw. If your dog does not tolerate chicken, be aware that sometimes it can depend on the production method for that chicken as well. While the use of hormones is illegal in chicken and have been for 50 years or so (so those signs advertising 'hormone free' are true, but are in a way false advertising by omission as ALL chicken is hormone free no matter what the source - I certainly wouldn't be paying extra just because it was stated to be 'hormone free' ), there are other chemicals/antibiotics used in the process which can sometimes cause a reaction. sometimes a dog will do fine on organic chicken, but reacts to those grown using 'normal' commercial methods.

I thought I would post this here for any vets or soon to be vets who may be on the list. If they wish to discuss the feeding of a raw/BARF diet with other vets there is an email list specifically for veterinary professionals (note - non vets please do not attempt to join it is a restricted list). www.yahoogroups.com/groups/rawvet is a place where vets can discuss professionally the ins and outs of a raw diet both in general and in relation to the practice of veterinary medicine. There are vets from all over the world on the list including those from Australia, the US, UK, Scandanavia and Europe. Some reading too for those who only trust the word of vets: "Give Your Dog a Bone", "Grow your Pups with Bones" and "the BARF diet" are by Australian Vet Ian Billinghurst. "Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health" which is a more technical publication for those interested in the science is by veterinary dental specialist Dr Tom Lonsdale. He also has a new book out called "Work Wonders"

The article in the link below is an excellent one that gives some good facts regarding feeding vegetarian diets to dogs and is essential reading for anyone considering this path: http://b-naturals.com/Aug2003.php

Yep, thats it. If you can encourage him to sleep on something softer that will help. In summer when it is warmer one of the metal framed beds (hessian or shadecloth type cover) are good, or get a piece of rubber/hard foam matting from somewhere like Clark Rubber for him to lie on.

While I am a strong beleiver in a raw diet (good for you for going down that route ) it is important to remember that no matter what the diet, a dog can be fussy. What is important in this case is the routine. I have some picky eaters and some not so picky. I can understand your frustration when a dog for some reason does not eat. But think for a minute - does it really need to? Or is it maintaining a reasonable weight (and lean is reasonable and actually preferable from a health point of view) while still missing meals? Sometimes we need to trust our dogs as a healthy dog will not starve itself to death (naturally a dog who usually eats, but suddenly goes off its food, or a dog which is showing signs of being unwell, is NOT healthy and this rule does not apply!). The way I do it is to leave the food down for 15 minutes. If they have not started eating in this time, the food gets picked up till next mealtime. I have one dog in particular that will miss usually at least one meal a week as a rule. She maintains an excellent weight and has no problem with this routine. As a rule it is not the dog that finds it a problem, just the person feeding them.

Palane you need a hydrobath! It would at least make steps 3 to 7 a bit easier . I dont think I could even contemplate the process without one any more. Drying is the big time killer though. No getting around that one :rolleyes:

On average mine get washed about once aevery 4 to 6 weeks on a rotational basis (too much to do them all on one day). That includes the Dally who gets done just because I happen to be 'wash mode'! :rolleyes: She is so easy though and hardly takes any time at all compared to the others. If you want to wash frequently, basically all you need to do is ensure you put in what you take out by conditioning the coat the same way you would condition your own hair.

25kg? I had a Pyrenean Mountain Dog who was 27kg! She was small for the breed at only 26 inches tall at the shoulder and lean but not underweight. I have a Dalmatian that weighs less than that too and she is definitely not skinny. I cant imagine how fat a 25kg sheltie would be

To me, without seeing the dog, what you describe sounds like a structural issue made worse by the extra weight. like poodlefan suggested, my immediete thought was hips etc. I would also recommend a second opinion. It sounds like this dog may have a lot of problems related to its diet (what it eats and how much). Truth is though, if your mum does not recognise there is a problem and is not prepared to change - particularly to get some weight off the dog which will be crucial - then there is not much anyone can do.

Just ask my dogs how much they love the McDonalds drive through :p (in fact I used the 'want to go to McDonalds?' line last week when trying to hurry up one of my dogs out of sedation following a procedure. The vet thought it was a hoot as it was the only thing she responded to! :D ) Yep, chippies, nuggets and soft serve is often on the order. But only as an occasional treat in moderation (for me too ) :D

As a treat in moderation As a treat in moderation. Watch for the gasses coming out the other end! :D If you want to feed veggies, this is fine to add as part of the variety in moderation. IMO raw is preferred. Be aware that poos and urine will likely come out red as a result of eating it As a treat in moderation

No, it is not correct. IMO the only vegetable I avoid is onions (which cause anemia). Anything else, a little in moderation, has never caused a serious problem for my dogs, nor have I personally heard of them being a serious problem (and yes, this includes things like grapes and avocados ) Getting back to tomatos - they are quite acidic, being a member of the nightshade family. One of the reasons I wouldn't purposely include them in the diet (particularly if your dog has arthritis or liver issues) although if you share a bit of ham and tomato sandwich, have a bit of leftover pasta sauce or your dog likes to eat them off the plant before you can harvest them for yourself then I would not be concerned (unless you REALLY wanted those tomatos on the bush for yourself that is :D ) Poodlefan has the corn thing covered :D

If the quicks are long like that the only real way is to have the vet do it by sedating the dog, cutting them to the desired length and cauterising them to stop the bleeding. The only other alternative I can think of may be to use a dremmel. If you take it back a little bit at a time with the dremmel (a couple of times a week or at least once a week) you may be able to get the quick to retract over time/get the nails shorter. This wont be a quick process though and will need the owner to keep using the dremmel regularly to make it work.

As I said, human waste is largely a meat byproduct. Particularly if you are dealing with cultures such as the Inuit who have a largely animal product based diet. Actually I have seen dogs go crazy for human waste before in various circumstances (including one time while exercising dogs at a roadside layby where obviously someone had stopped during the night to go behind a tree) Your question was whether it was common. No, it is not common. This does not mean they may not do it from time to time and occasionally a bird will be eaten (on average maybe one or two per year, if that). Birds however, can be difficult and unpredictable game to catch. The energy expended to catch them is out of proportion to the calories they gain from eating them. It is not efficient therefore to catch and eat birds as a large proportion of their diet and as a result large ungulates tend to make up the greatest proportion (The exception to this rule may be if the pack or individuals are near a rookery or nesting site of birds where eggs and young are easy pickings during nesting season. They may elect to eat these young as 'easy pickings' while they are available. Not a common occurrence by any means, but a possibility. ) Edited to add tha the catching of small game is largely carried out by solitary animals rather than a pack as a necessity if they want to survive as they do not have the ability to catch larger game. Hunting smaller game is just not efficient for a pack - too much energy expended for not enough meat. Just as an aside, if your reading has included any of the claims made by Farley Mowatt. Remember that his book has been exposed as a work of fiction. He has been called a 'charlatan' by at least one well known and well respected wolf researcher. I can not tell you the damage his false and misleading claims have caused to popular understanding of wolf diet and behaviour. You are quite free to believe this. Your perogative if you are happy that your understanding of available information leads you to this conclusion. I, on the other hand, take up the perogative to believe something different based on my own research and practice over the last 10 years

I have had the pleasure of working with a number of species of wild canid and I have enjoyed every minute of it Remember that the African huinting dog is not Canis Lupus (which the Wolf, Dingo and Domestic Dog are) so diet and behaviour related to diet can be a bit different where they are concerned. The same way people are often quoting the Maned Wolf as an example of a 'dog' that eats vegetable matter when it really isnt a 'wolf' at all! They eat the actual meaty part, but shake out the vegetable matter. If they get any, it is that left clinging after they have shaken it off. As a rule they do not eat other canivores etc. Their diet consists almost solely of herbivores The wastes are mostly a meat or meat byproduct. Not surprising really. Technically, yes, but there is a very big difference between feeding domestic rice or wheat or corn and getting maybe a teaspoon to tablespoon of wild grass seed 3 or 4 times in summer only. No. This is one of the ones I was referring to (ie "The Nutrient Requirements of Dogs"), although mine is an earlier edition (I am informed that those parts I was referring to have not changed in the new edition though) Probably the same reason I eat chocolate . dogs are scavengers and survive on a wide range of foods. They are nothing if not adaptable. The key however is whather you are interested in what they can eat to survive, or what makes them thrive.

Actually this is incorrect, as confirmed by David Mech (considered to be perhaps THE authority on wolves) at a seminar he conducted for us last year on the diet and feeding habits of the wolf from birth to death. He stated emphatically that the wolf does not eat the stomach contents of larger prey (naturally the stomach of prey such as rabbits is consumed as they simply dont bother removing something so small). Certainly one of the first things they go for are internal organs such as heart, liver etc as well as the rump. The stomach however, if eaten, is shaken out to remove the contents. Same goes for the intestines. I have seen this for a fact too, having almost stepped in the piles of stomach contents in the enclosure when working with a captive wolf pack at a conservation facility in the US As for the contents of the stomach - it should be remembered that domestic grains are nothing like the seeds that will be found in the wild. Wild seeds are smaller and more prone to scatter - domestic grains have ben bred specifically to be larger and to 'hold on' to the plant for easy harvesting. Large ungulates tend to graze firstly on new sweet fresh shoots rather than older coarse grass which contains seed heads. Seed heads, if consumed, will only be consumed in one season and not all year round, so if present in the stomach at all, will only be there at certain times of the year. Most of the contents of the stomach (which as I stated earlier is seldom if ever eaten) is made up primarily of grasses and other leafy green matter. In relation to the diet of sled dogs, if you have not already done so, I recommend reading "Hematological and metabolic responses to training in racing sled dogs fed diets containing medium, low, or zero carbohydrate" by DS Kronfeld, EP Hammel, CF Ramberg Jr and HL Dunlap Jr : "In a 28 week study, 18 racing sled dogs were trained to maximal fitness in 12 weeks, sustained through a racing season of 12 weeks, followed by gradual of training of 4 weeks......On an energy basis, the diets contained protein, fat, and carbohydrate in the proportions of 39:61:0 (diet A), 32:45:23 (diet B), and 28:34:38 (diet C)." "Dogs on diet A maintained higher serum concentrations of albumin, calcium, magnesium, and free fatty acids during the racing season than did dogs fed diets B or C. They also exhibited the greatest increases in red cell count, hemoglobin concentration, and packed cell volume during training. High values of red cell indices were not sustained through the racing season in dogs fed diet C. In addition to attributes already widely appreciated, viz. a higher energy density an digestibility, the carbohydrate-free, high-fat diet A appeared to confer advantages for prolonged strenuous running in terms of certain metabolic responses to training." Another useful article is "The Nutritional Requirements of Exercising Dogs" by Richard C. Hill

Many commercial dry foods are sprayed on the outside, often with fat etc, as an 'attractant' to make them taste and smell better to the animal. Canned foods would have any additive used for this purpose mixed in as part of the overall product as spraying on top would not be a practical way of attracting given that often only a portion of the can is used. Anything on the surface in the cans that you see is a result of the product 'settling' after the product has been added to the can and it cools. Ie, some parts of the product are 'heavier' and settle to the bottom while some float on the surface (eg often you will see a jelly or liquid layer on top caused by this settling process after canning - you can see it in more than just pet foods).

Purdue are the leaders in studies on GDV/Bloat. Here is some info from their website which is important reading for anyone with a bloat prone breed: http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm Raised feeders have been shown in the Purdue studies to increase the incidence of Bloat. In fact 20 and 52% of cases of GDV among the large breed and giant breed dogs, respectively, were attributed to having a raised feed bowl.

I dont agree with your statement. They dont NEED grains, for example, and the studies are there to show that they dont (the only time a dog needs carbohydrates are when they are a lactating bitch). See for example that tome "The Nutrient Requirements of Dogs" or even just the Merck Veternary Manual which states grains as being 'economical' (in a monetary sense) rather than required. Grain is a historically cheap 'filler' which CAN be used in a dogs diet, but is not something that is biologically required nor, it can be debated, optimal (There are studies on this too in relation to the energy requirements of exercising dogs and how they use proteins, fats and carbohydrates, a diet containing no carbs actually being more optimal in terms of energy supply and use). Mana, yes, the addition of fish - including the canned cat food type which is whole fish and only fish without any additives (although whole raw is certainly optimal if available) is IMO ok as an addition to a raw diet. Remembering of course that the main features of such a diet are balance and variety over time and everything in moderation.

5 months? He is likely teething. This can sometimes affect things. Some seem to go 'off' around teething time (down in pastern, feet splaying etc). Definitely talk to your breeder if you can. Failing that, maybe get in touch with Lew (www.b-naturals.com) who is a Rotti breeder and a wealth of knowledge on nutrition. Walking on gravel and/or sand is often suggested to help tighten feet.