espinay2

Running around like mad things for 20-25 minutes, particularly at this time of year when it is warm, does not sound too bad to me. That said, I agree that you may want to feed more red meats such as beef and lamb. Don't feed lean red meats but those with some fat content as well. Lamb flaps are good. Also beef brisket bones.

Have to agree with Tess on this one. Most of the arguments regarding protein levels are in regard to the proteins in commercial foods which are in a form that is harder for a dog to metabolise (often the majority of them are often from grains and those from meat have been rendered and denatured so are very changed from the original raw product). I have a large breed and my old dogs get fed the same as the young ones with no issue. If the dog does have specifically diagnosed condition with their kidneys etc (often caused by years of commercial foods), it is possible to feed a modified diet specifically for this condition (for example see the articles in the newsletter directory at B-Naturals ) but a modified diet is not generally necessary just because a dog is old. Feeding a raw diet may also put less stress on the dog and reduce the chance of problems occurring.

The only time a dog needs carbohydrates (according to studies) is when they are a lactating bitch. This is set out in that tome 'the nutrient requirements of dogs' which guides commercial dog food companies on what they should include in their foods. Note that carbs are not necessary, but are 'convenient' to include in commercial foods because of the cost savings they provide for the company. There are quite a few studies that have been done which look at the energy requirements of exercising dogs and what provides the best source of energy. They showed that dogs which were on diets that were carb free and provided energy in the form of protein and fat performed better than dogs on a high carb diet, or even those which were supplied energy from both carbs and fats.

If I am bathing weekly (for shows etc) I use a gentle soap free wash and make sure to moisturise the coat etc as well (love the Plush Puppy Seabreeze Oil which I use as a leave-in rinse). Something like the Plush Puppy hydrobath wash or the Fidos herbal rinse is good. I personally wouldn't be using something like a flea shampoo that often.

I 100% agree with this. The thing to remember when feeding a raw diet is that while it involves changing what you feed, it more than anything involves changing HOW YOU THINK about feeding. Raw diets are NOT about recipes. They are not one size fits all or follow the plan on the bag type diets. Instead they involve a set of principles on which you can base how you feed your dogs. You need to understand the principles first as they will guide everything you do. I fully understand that some people need their hand held a lot more than that. It can take time to change the way you think about how you feed and it is not always easy (although reading at least one book and following the principles in it is a good way to start). But in the end, when it comes to a raw diet, you HAVE to do the reading and understand WHY you are feeding like that as well as knowing the types of things you can feed.

I would recommend going to www.b-naturals.com, clicking on the newsletter directory and checking out some of the articles. If I remember rightly she has some on IBD etc which may provide some help.

Dr Klinghammer is published so you could search for his work as well as that by Patricia Goodman. You could probably get hold of some of it, including the Ethogram, from Wolf Park in Battleground, Indiana. Anything by L David Mech is worth reading. His book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behaviour of an Endangered Species" is a good start. The Book 'Dogs' by Ray and Lorna Coppinger is also worth a look (although I don't personally agree with all their theories). Their discussion of the selection for and development of different traits in different breeds is interesting. Other resources include 'The Dogs Mind' by Bruce Fogle and 'Behaviour of Wolves, Dogs and Related Canids' by Michael W Fox. Lots more than this of course, but these are probably a good start for those who want to start reading more on the subject.

I have spent some time in the US with renowned ethologist Dr Erich Klinghammer who is responsible for developing the wolf behaviour ethogram. When it comes to comparing wolf and dog behaviour - while there are differences in the intensity and frequency of certain behaviours (and there are between certain breeds of dog too) they have exactly the same behaviour set.

Dogs and wolves are MUCH closer than people and chimps. Dogs and wolves are both classified as Canis Lupus - they are in fact the same species and can interbreed readily. Wolf/dog crosses are reasonably common in the US. I am yet to see a human crossed with a chimp (though some times I think some people come close ;-) ). Their digestive tracts, on scientific examination, are the same - EXACTLY the same.

Vehs suggested I pop in, so here I am Bit of background - I have been feeding a raw diet for about 14 years (I think now) and have been involved fairly heavily with the 'raw diet movement' over that time. That said, my views are only that of one person and your milage may vary... At this point in time I feed basically a prey model diet. 'Prey model' diet is a term that has come about to describe a diet which is more closely based on what a dog would eat in the wild both in type and in form. What that actually means for an individual can vary though. Some feed totally whole prey with skin, fur, guts and all. Some feed as a pack rather than individually. Some have taken it to mean feeding nothing but raw meat, bones and offal (the split with other raw diets is mostly based on the issues of veggies, grains, and mincing/grinding meat and bones). Most tend to feed mostly large pieces of meat and bones, some offal, and other things on an opportunistic basis occasionally. For my own dogs I feed mostly large pieces of raw very meaty bones as the main part of the diet. This does not mean however, that this is all I feed. My dogs get offal and fish as well and also get other things like eggs, veggies, yoghurt, and even things like rice or oats etc on occasion. How can this be a prey model diet you say? Even Lonsdale suggests that feeding healthy food scraps as a small portion of the diet is fine. My dogs dont specifically get veggies or grains etc prepared for them, but do get them as occasional leftovers from our kitchen (probably a few spoonfuls about once or twice a week each). I dont go out of my way to feed veggies and dont feed them in huge amounts. Several years ago a friend of mine arranged for a seminar with renowned wolf behaviour expert David Mech on the diet and feeding habits of wolves. He was asked specifically whether wolves eat the stomach contents of prey. His reply was that they do not eat the stomach contents of large prey. Small prey they may not bother to take it out, but the large animals they shake it out of the stomach before they eat the stomach. I have seen this myself working with a captive wolf population in the US. The wolf pack was fed whole prey and would shake out the stomach contents just like the wild wolves do. Just as the basic nutritional requirements of modern city dwellers are no different to that of hunter gatherers thousands of years ago, the basic nutritional needs of dogs and wolves do not differ. Naturally there are variations in relation to energy requirements etc depending on how active an animal is, but that is calories, not basic nutritional requirement. As for dogs grazing, I personally don't use this as a reason to feed them more veggies - I simply allow them to graze! (on healthy pesticide/herbicide free grass of course) It may be nutritional, it may be medicinal, but it is natural for them in a way that pureed veggies in a bowl isn't. Things I feed include: chicken frames (or any other portion of the chicken including legs, thighs, maryland pieces etc including the odd whole chicken when I get them for a good price), turkey necks and frames, whole rabbits, kangaroo tails, whole lamb necks, lamb flaps, beef brisket, big whole chunks of beef meat, lambs hearts, liver, kidney, brains, tounge etc. I also take an opportunistic approach in buying whatever big meaty pieces I can get my hands on for a good price (including the odd sheep or pigs head). The less saw cuts in any bones and the larger the pieces I can get, the better I like it. Many people raise pups on a raw diet both here and overseas. Many have multiple generations of raw raised dogs. I run an email list at yahoogroups called 'rawbreeder' which is a discussion group for breeders who feed a raw diet. A friend runs a 'sister' list called 'rawpup' which is primarily for pups after they go to their new homes. My advice for those starting out. You can pick pretty much any of the books - Billinghurst, Kymythy Schultz, Lonsdale etc and follow their suggestions to be feeding a diet that is IMO way better than any commercial foods on offer. Once you are comfortable with this, with further reading and discussion you can 'tweak' the diet if you wish into a form that better suits you, your dog and your beliefs. Any of the books will give you a grounding in the basic principles. Some of thses principles include: Keep it simple - feeding a raw diet should not involve hours of preparation and be overly complex Feed variety - you should start with one or two things when switching over initially, but gradually you can feed a variety of different things, even if there are one or two that you use as your 'base' foods. Balance over time - You dont have to include every single nutrient in every single meal. Do we eat like that? Balance different foods over a 10 to 14 day period or so. Keep it simple - yes, I am repeating this. Feed on average 2 -3% of a dogs adult (or estimated adult) weight daily. But this is a GUIDE only. Some dogs eat more and some eat less. some may need different amounts at different times. you will need to LOOK and FEEL your dog regularly to keep an eye on its weight. Think of what a prey animal is (think of a bunny or similar) and get a handle on the different proportions and parts of an animal - how much is bone, how much is meat, how much are organs. they are the basic ratios for you to aim for over time (remember that if a pack is feasting on the deer they may only get the haunch meat one day, and the rib bones another - refer to Balance over time) If you wish to feed things such as veggies etc, remember that these do not make up the bulk of a dogs diet. They are an extra that you may or may not choose to give. Hope that helps a little?

If you are looking at health/nutrition sites relevant to Rotties (and other breeds!) a very interesting and useful one is run by someone I know in the US. She is a Rottie breeder and nutritionist: B-Naturals It is a commerical site (good products but US based) but the most valuable info is contained in the newsletter section - some absolutely fantastic articles.Newsletter Directory Also check out her links and email lists page which is a wealth of resources.

Why the change? Having 'been along for the ride' inside the raw diet movement through that period, perhaps I can shed a little light on how it has all developed over time historically (though my timeline may be out a bit as I am going from memory). Early in the piece there was Juliette de Baraclay Levy who was really the forerunner in bringing people back to feeding a more 'natural' diet to dogs. Many fed their dogs according to her suggestions. It had a lot more emphasis on grains, and much is considered 'outdated' now, but it still provides some fantastic info. She influenced a lot of the authors who came later, including Billinghurst and approved very much of people such as Tom Lonsdale and what they were saying. Then Billinghurst released 'Give your dog a Bone' Which started a major groundswell in more natural feeding. It emphasised a very simple method for feeding the family dog using natural foods rather than commercially processed products. It is still an excellent book and any dog fed according to these guidelines should do well. Billinghurst also a few years later released 'Grow your Pups with Bones' designed to expand on feeding for puppies/breeding etc. Around the same time there were authors in the US such as Kymythy Schultz who were developing similar approaches. Her approach is more geared to an American way of doing things but it as well is excellent. A very strong internet community developed which very much led the way in introducing people around the world to feeding a raw 'bones and raw food' or 'biologically appropriate raw foods' diet. There were quite a few very dedicated people behind the scenes who were looking at diet intellectually and doing reseach as well as teaching others. It got big and Billinghurst for a time developed quite a cult following. the US was a lot harder place to gain acceptance of this type of diet. Fear of bacteria was/is a big issue for them and many were scared of feeding bones - often being told emphatically by their vets not to do it. They have been feeding commercial foods a lot longer than here in Australia. Feeding a home prepared diet was a lot scarier a prospect for many and many felt they could only do it while having their hand held. Quite a few companies began to be developed providing ready made raw diets - usually to be fed in conjunction with raw meaty bones but also which could be fed on their own for those scared of bones. Tom Lonsdale was around this time also looking at things from a Veterinary dentistry point of view. He took a slightly different approach to feeding a raw diet. His was a far more 'basic' concept of feeding whole raw or parts of prey. Much more simple in many ways, but also a bit further out of the comfort zone for many people still struggling with the concept of not feeding commercial foods. Billinghurst then releases a new book 'The BARF Diet'. It is a much more simplified approach when compared to his first book - RMBs and patties. The grains were gone from his recommendations by this time but he still relies heavily on vegetable matter. It is a much easier approach for many US folks to take on board - the book is designed more for this market. Right about now the political/doctrinal 'veggie wars' are occuring and there is a split between those who subscribe to a Lonsdale style approach and a Billinghurst one - this largely focusses on the role of vegetable matter in the dogs diet. One saying it is important and the other saying you can feed it incidentally, but it is not necessary. It is an 'omnivore versus carnivore' debate. Billinghurst also gets involved in the creating of commercial patties - which many who have liked his teaching that diet is easy to do yourself and you dont need commercial products see as a 'sell out'. Others do like it as despite the expense as it makes things easier for them, adding another option to the commercial market. I am not sure where things stand commercially with him and the patties, but his picture is on them and they are promoted as his. FWIW, I think that no matter which approach someone takes out of those given above, they are a better option than feeding a highly processed commercial dry or canned food. It comes down to personal choice and all are very similar in their 'bare bones' basics.

Yes, you can leave meat out to warm up to room temperature. Make sure it is covered and not left out too long. One or two hours is usually fine, depending on how cold it is. If it is frozen you can leave it out longer to thaw.

Most adult dogs are able to 'hold it' for quite a long time and may only go morning and evening when they are most active and most likely to eat/drink. Going too often can sometimes be just as much a problem as not going enough. If he seems to have a problem going or you are concerned, I would get it checked but the way you describe it IMO sounds fairly normal for an adult dog. IT is great that you are keeping your dog lean. Keep up the good work.

Liver, particularly the dried stuff, can sometimes turn poos a bit 'greenish'.

My Dalmatian girl damaged her tail at a point up near her pelvis (actually above her 'tail'). She did it twice while playing, leaving her with a limp 'dead' tail after each episode. The second time we x-rayed and there was a small fracture. Because of where it was the only thing we could to was give her anti-inflammatories and let it heal on its own (and limit the over exuberant play <sigh>). She has a little thumb print there now and afterwards found it a bit more difficult to jump up on or over things (no more agility - she was pretty much retired from that by then anyway though). She is almost 13 years old now and it has not affected her mobility too much overall. She can still climb up on the couch just fine, though the bed is just a little high for her now .

I have a dog here who has a hip score of 63. Now age 9 (and a giant breed) and she is still doing well though definitely not overly mobile now. She can still walk once around the football field though even if it is slow. A few things that may help from my experience with her, though every dog will definitely vary: because of the problem with the hips they will put more weight on the front than normal. My girl has more muscle development at the front to compensate and does tend to take a wider stance to support the weight. We have taken a route of only giving her what she needs when she truly needs it so that it has the most effect for longer. We started with glucosamine and fish oil along with cartrophen injections about every 8 months to begin with after diagnosis at age 2 when she was hip scored. Later when her mobility decreased a bit more we changed to six monthly cartrophen and added asprin daily (dose and frequency on vet advice). When that was not working as well, she was switched from asprin to cu-algesic once a day. Just recently in addition to the cu-algesic we have increased the cartropen to every 3 months. Maintaining her exercise has been important. I have noticed that during the times when I have not kept the exercise up she has not done as well. You need to maintain the muscle to support the joints. Even a slow stroll of a walk to the end of the street and back - the that is all she can do - will help. If you can, swimming is good as it will help maintain allround muscle development in both the front and rear. We have kept her lean - maybe even a little leaner than we would normally. This has helped keep extra weight off the joints. We now have a ramp that we use to help her in and out of the car, into the hydrobath and onto the grooming table etc. It saves out back a lot and means she has to place less weight on her rear to get up on/into things. Her quality of life has been good. And while we have compensated for her slowness and increasingly limited mobility she certainly has led a full one. HTH and good luck with your girl in the end it will be up to you and your vet to decide what is the best approach based on how she is doing. As I said, every dog is different, but I hope this may help in some small way.

I have had two orders from them so far and have been very happy with both the quality and price.

It sounds to me like your dog is manipulating you big time. Most times fussy dogs are created by their owners. As suggested already, it sounds like you need to lay down the law a bit. Offer the BARF patties. Put it down for your dog for about 15 minutes. Don't try and cajole your dog into eating, just leave her be to figure it out. After 15 minutes if she hasn't started eating pick it up and put it away. DO NOT offer any other food as an alternative - she has a 15 minute window to start eating what is offered by you and that is it. Be strong and DO NOT give in to pleading eyes to share your dinner. Offer the food twice a day in this manner. A healthy dog will not starve itself, though your dog may try and hold out for a few meals in the hope you will offer something else. Eventually she will realise that that is all you are offering and will go ahead and eat. DO NOT give in. If you give in you are creating an even bigger rod for your own back. Eventually you will be able to give human dinner treats again (treats! not meals! and on your terms, not hers) but for a few weeks at least until the routine is established, stick to things like the BARF patties that are offered on your terms and not hers.

beef liver, lamb liver, chicken liver, beef kidney, lamb kidney, lamb hear, beef heart. It give a little bit of all these things. One at a time just roated depending on what I have, in a small amount, a couple of times a week. If you have to choose one type, I would use some kind of liver.

I don't like and don't as a rule use raised feeders BUT for a dog that is having a hard time (and won't/can't lie down to eat) I have used them. In those cases the benefit IMO has outweighed the risk. The little plastic step stools are great for this. They are high enough to give some relief while being low enough that the dog still has to drop his head to eat.

I have no problem fitting even my bigger Pyreneans in a hydrobath and when I had the mobile dog wash often did Danes & Wolfies etc without much trouble. They were sometimes a tight fit certainly but not uncomfortable.

I am trying them out and got my first order delivered on Tuesday. I am quite happy with the quality of the product I got and I found the price quite reasonable. Only thing I wasn't happy with was that the delivery guy didn't turn up till after 11 o'clock at night! Not fun when you are repackaging and stocking the freezer until well after midnight when you have to be up at 5am the next day.

'hamberger mince' is an 'americanism'. It basically means the fattier type beef mince.

I use a single motor (two speed) ezycoat with the Pyrs and find it handles the job well. It is a nice economical little workhorse.