espinay2

Was there a contract of sale? Were any health guarantees stipulated? Was your brother informed of the sire and dams hip scores and was HD discussed? These can all be relevant.

Your brother should call and discuss the issue (calmly and without accusation) with the breeder themselves. No good taking what was said second and third hand. Things can get misinterpreted that way and sometimes blown way out of proportion. Talk first. THEN decide what further there is to do. Remember that HD can sometimes occur regardless of the breeder doing everything right (and the owner doing the right thing too). Starting a slanging match with breeder, particularly when your brother has not talked to them directly, will not help the dog.

Yes, that's why topics like this are important to discuss, even though they can get emotive. Nobody wants to put down puppies they have bred. Looking from another point of view, why would a person choose to buy a pet of higher health risk than its littermates? You would hope that puppy buyers want their dogs to have as long and comfortable lives as possible and would want to buy from breeders that felt that supplying only healthy, quality pups to puppy buyers was an important part of their breeding ethic. i thought I read earlier that registered breeders werent allowed to sell theit white pups. So give them to a rescue organisation. There is always deaf dogs going through the rescue world and all manage to find homes. If they are desexed, chipped, vaccinated and well versed in deaf dog care then i see that as a good thing. So you are encouraging breeders to offload dogs onto rescue rather than taking responsibility of the dogs for themselves? Really there are enough dogs in rescue already. And no, not everything can be found suitable homes (finding suitable ones for even the 'healthy' dogs can be a challenge at times). Not everyone wants or has the capacity to take on a pet with special needs, and not everyone who wants to is a suitable candidate to do it. Responsible breeders will make choices which to the best of their ability limit the opportunities for issues such as deafness occurring. But sometimes breeders have to make the hard decisions, and they don't do it lightly or without care or anguish. Many a breeder has cried over a puppy that has been given its wings for for any number of reasons.

Agree hard to know - the way you describe it does sounds like zoomies :laugh: though it could be something else. Do they have a camera with video function/video recorder? Perhaps get them to put it somewhere handy and get them to record it for you if it happens again.

Sorry, but can you provide a reference for that figure? Some figures from America = 10% bilateral deafness + 20% unilateral so the opposite to what you claim. http://www.auburn.ed...dalmatians.html Though some other references give the numbers as 8% and 22% respectively. Thus these figures give 30% with some level of deafness, NOT the other way around. Note also however, that in Australia we do not accept blue eyes in the Dalmatian standard, which they do in the US. Dalmatians with blue eyes are at a higher risk of hearing loss and prevalence of deafness is higher in populations where blue eyes occur: http://www.lancedal....lth/gstrain.htm Thus the percentage of deafness in Australian Dalmatians will be even lower than these figures from America - something that is supported by anecdotal evidence from breeders.

Also skewed when there is only a small number of breeders hip scoring. If these breeders are working hard to improve and get good scores, but the majority are not even hip scoring, it does not present an average of the population, just an average of the dogs actually scored (which is actually as you say all it is anyway). What annoys me is when breeders who don't score then use this as evidence that the breed gets low scores and therefore they don't need to hip score .

'eye-stalk' is part of the functional sequence of predatory motor patterns which is something that every dog has. The sequence is: orient>eye-stalk>chase>grab-bite>kill-bite>dissect>consume Different breeds however, have been bred to display more of some and less of another - eg sheep herding breeds may have a strong eye-stalk>chase but not the later parts of the sequence (as you don't want them grabbing the sheep). Other breeds will display them more strongly (in breeds designed to chase and bring down game or to kill their quarry). So what the dog is displaying is a strong natural eye-stalk tendency. If I were the instructor I would be encouraging the owner to break the dogs focus on other dogs. As you say, it can unsettle the other dogs and the dog shoud rather be learning to pay attention to the handler and relax in the presence of other dogs.

Good on you Newfsie. I understand the hard decision, having had to make it myself in the past. I have had a bitch with HD (severe in her case) and she lived very happily till 10 with good mobility (died from unrelated cause). As you say, management can help a lot. Lean is good :) and I like to keep my dogs lean too. Some will say they are too lean, but they can't argue that they are not fit and healthy!! :laugh:

I have used Pets at Peace in Canberra multiple times now over quite a few years and have been very happy with the service and care they offered every time. As for knowing whether it was my dog I was getting back? Unless you actually watch the process yourself, you have to trust them. I do know though that my extra big girl Milou came back in a bigger and heavier urn than all my others - which is exactly what I would expect her to (I think they had to go out and get it especially for her :laugh: )

Esther-C if you can get it is generally considered the better form. I use a normal ascorbic acid powder as a rule - cheaper and easier to get hold of and IMO just as good. You can even use chewable tablets if you want (though watch the colour and sugar when you choose them). Whatever is easiest to give your dog. Most health food stores stock it and some livestock/pet stores (if you want to buy in larger amounts such as sold for horses or greyhounds etc)

Yes, unfortunately it can still happen despite the breeder doing everything right. Newfsie, how old was your pup and what method was it scored by? I am presuming it was older (one or two years of age?) but just curious, as we are seeing a worrying trend at the moment with some vets recommending surgery when the pups are around 16 weeks old and they are not doing proper scores for the x-rays (not even pennHIP which is the only method that is reliable at this age). Some of the pups being done never needed the operation .

Vit C helps support joints and connective tissues. I give all my puppies Vit C. An issue you are trying to avoid is OVER nutrition. Adult foods are lower in protein (often even than large breed puppy foods - which may not differ much from other types of puppy foods in this respect). Many experienced large breed breeders, and those such as author (on topics such as dog structure) and puppy assessor Pat Hastings (who has assessed thousands of pups and has worked with a number of pet food companies) strongly recommend adult foods for growing pups in a slow and even manner.

Gosh I remember taking my first Pyrenean to training classes. What a learning curve! I think anyone watching us would have wondered 'why' too. I know I did a few times :laugh: (and yes, done the frustrated tears thing). Reading about what a breed is like and understanding that in real life can be two different things. Sounds like this lady is working hard to try and work with that though, and sometimes with independent breeds laughing and going with the flow can really be the best approach at times. Sometimes 'pushing' too much is counterproductive. Though yes, I have seen some pairings in the classes I teach where I do think it may not have been the best choice. At least they are there though and I try to help them as best I can. Not always easy in a large class, as you can't give all your attention to them for all of the time. Not everyone is coordinated, or has a good sense of timing, or can easily use their voice in more than a monotone not matter how often you help or remind them. Some people have old habits they find hard to break. And yes, trying to get some to 'let their hair down' and have fun can be a challenge :laugh: Some do get better with practice. I have recommended one on one classes to some in the past.

deleted - double post.

Start by just getting her used to having her muzzle handled without opening the mouth Firm but kind. Then having her lip lifted on one side/played with etc. Then progress to mouth exam. Do it in exchange for treats and with lots of praise and do it in stages. Has she finished teething? I remember reading from a well known US handler that he never shows/mouths a teething pup as he doesn't want them having a bad experience while their mouth is sore. Her mouth may be sore if she is still teething or she may recall pain from mouthing while she was.

What breed? Definitely don't give extra calcium! I would be supplementing with Vit C. I might also switch to an adult food rather than a puppy one. Have you asked for guidance from your pups breeder?

The important thing is how you USE the information. Knowing just the parents scores is just the tip of the iceberg too. You need to know siblings as well as other dogs in the direct pedigree. And knowing that being polygenetic, just doing the scoring is not the only thing that needs to be taken into account. Looked at a different way, hip scoring can also potentially help avoid increasing scores (by identifying higher scoring dogs you dont necessarily want to use), even if they dont necessarily reduce them significantly It is also a matter of lowering 'averages' too - not every dog is going to have a good hip score despite careful selection, but overall the scores may reduce when looked at statistically as a group. Just out of curiosity - was the argument put forward by someone who actually hip and elbow scores? This is often an agrument I hear from people who don't (so have no idea what the scores of their own dogs are anyway)

Pups can be tested for deafness when their hearing comes in. Most Dalmatian breeders for instance do it with every litter. You can test response to loud noises/startle response (from behind or when they are asleep and when separated from other littermates). You can also do BAER testing and a lot of breeders in a lot of breeds (Dalmatians, Bull Terriers, Australian Cattle Dogs etc) will do this often to whole litters before they are placed. Bilaterally deaf puppies are generally euthanased.

It can depend on what people are breeding with what. I understand that breeding 'flashy' to 'flashy' (i.e. dogs with a large amount of white on them) is more likely to produce all white than breeding solid or with a small amount of white to flashy (or solid to solid etc). I understand many breeders try not to breed too many generations of just 'flashy' dogs as this can result in too much white and a higher percentage of all white dogs. I think flashy dogs have been popular though so some may not always take this into account when making breeding choices? A Boxer person would be best placed to answer that.

I have used Cryogenes in Vic and found them to be good.

Perhaps what was meant by 'concieves' is time of fertilisation (which actually is the date of conception regardless of when the bitch was mated). Certainly a bitch will go 'off' after this as a rule (as after a set period the egg can no longer be fertilised regardless of whether it actually was or not). Did you do progesterone tests or smears to confirm when 'prime time' actually was? Noting that there are no set actual days when a bitch should be ready as they can ovulate early (e.g. day 8 or 9 or earlier) or late (day 20 or more) and it can sometimes vary from season to season (though often a bitch will display a particular 'pattern' after the first few seasons - they can throw you a loop sometimes though!). Often external signs are not a true indicator of the actual time of ovulation and fertilisation. A lot of the reason natural matings can be successful even if the timing is not perfect is because the semen lasts so long in the body. Also the reason why Frozen AI has to be more exact - as the semen after freezing doesnt last as long, you have to be 'spot on' when you inseminate so it is there and still viable exactly when the egg is ready to be fertilised (thus often has to be done later than when a bitch would usually be mated naturally)

A bitch will ovulate and be able to have her eggs fertilized only for a set period of time and that doesn't change. A bitch may ovulate either early or late though and may also be receptive to physically mating for varying periods. Fresh sperm can last in the bitch up to seven days or so so if she is mated several days or more before ovulation and fertilization she may present as still being 'in season' afterwards (As she hasn't ovulated and the eggs havent been fertilised yet), just as if she is mated on or closer to fertilisation ( which happens 48 hours after ovulation) she may seem to 'go out' more quickly. Note that the date a bitch is bred is not the important one but rather the dates of ovulation and fertilisation, as regardless of date of mating the date of fertilisation is 'day one'.

I thought Jan could still do desexing of males?

You could try vet Jan Spate in Hall for cheaper desexing. Her prices are known to be reasonably low (probably the lowest you will find in Canberra) and the first place most Canberra folks in the know will tell you to go if you want cheaper desexing. Note she is a vet you either love or hate. I have used her for horses, but not for dogs.

You would think so but not always, we have had repeat offenders in our area that have lost several dogs each, and still their dogs roam. Seems to be getting worse with more people moving rural for a tree change. I see that a lot too with many tree change folk. They get more land and think it great that the dog has more room - then don't want to pay for the fencing to keep them in it. Fencing is not cheap, but is it is a necessity and an expense that MUST be factored in. Most farm dogs have never been allowed to roam as a farmer knows the consequences. They are chained or in a run or fenced farm houseyard when not supervised. They don't get the run of the whole property. Unfortunately it is mostly the 'new' folk to the country that don't understand the 'rules'.