espinay2

As a groomer, that's one of the things I didn't get to see. We have some problems with unmanageable coats in Pyrs too in some lines (and my rescue girl had the WORST coat - horrible and cottony. But she also had a thyroid condition). Sometimes this can be affected by desexing too unfortunately. As soon as you desex a dog even with a great coat, some of those properties can be lost. The infamous 'spey coat'.

Pigment is taken VERY seriously in Pyreneans. We don't have any disqualifying faults in the Standard here in Aust (as the current one is the UK one despite us trying to change it to country of origin), but it is pretty much beaten into us from the beginning how important pigment is, so breeders are all pretty wary of it and it is usually emphasised in judges training. This below is included the standard for the Maremma, so I would think it is a matter of ensuring judges and breeders take heed of the standard? Who does the judges training for the breed?:

Interesting stats! Interesting also that while Pyrs have ben here longer, the number produced each year has remained fairly static with an average of 50 puppies per year Australia-wide (some years less, some more but most around this number).

Myra Savant discusses this in her books etc. The fact that dogs are inside in 'dog rooms' more and not getting out into the sunshine as much can affect their general health as well as fertility. She recommends getting them outside more (of course) and also full spectrum lighting inside. Must admit some of those designs are pretty funky though! Quite a few good ideas.

In Pyreneans the type is referred to as 'Lupomolossoid'. Basically it is not 'mastiff-like', but is a lighter more agile and elegant dog, while still retaining strength and bearing. Neither lupoid nor mastoid, but in between.

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations. Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals) That's interesting espinay2. That means their trespass laws would be impacting on Maremmas as well. I have already stated that the Maremma in the UK has been developing a more docile temperament, and was challenged to provide evidence. So thanks for that, it is duly noted. That isn't evidence of change. As noted, all the working Maremma here in Australia are descended from UK dogs who have lived under those rules since their introduction to that country. If it were a problem too, anyone such as yourself who did not live on a working property would have the same issue by virtue that your dogs do not work. A breed does not magically lose the ability unless effort is made to breed away from it over many generations. Being able to 'test' working ability is good, but there are many many breeders who do not have stock that recognize and work hard to maintain those traits in their dogs. I would even hazard a guess that not all of the top Italian breeders have farms that their dogs work on? So again, what hard evidence is there that showing is killing the instinct of the maremma?

Yes, pet dog owners can write to their local members and let them know what they consider important when it comes to how their new puppy is raised. This legislation restricts the ability of breeders to raise puppies in a family home environment and favours big commercial setups. Is that how you want your future dogs to be raised? If not then speak up now!!!

I can vouch for the jolly swagman. Be aware that they may place a limit on number of dogs in the room so check everything with them when you book. They are great though. As for the bakery, my OH was in Albury for the weekend and of course the most ESSENTIAL thing for him was to stop and get a vanilla slice for me on the way through Holbrook. He knew he wouldn't get back through the door if he forgot!

OFA will now list Australian tests for AVA hips and elbows, ACES eye certification, cardiac certificates etc. if you submit them. Due to interest from Australia in using the database this way my dogs have just been used as test cases for this (working out how to enter it on the database fields took a little work at first). They now have all their results on the OFA database and have also been issued with CHIC numbers. OFA is happy for other Australians to have their dogs health tests listed. You may need to check, but I think it is something like a one off fee of $25 US per dog and you can submit updates and additions as required.

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations. Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals)

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

14 Pups!! Well done to your girl and may she and her 11 babies thive!

An interesting study which concludes the following:"Based on the data presented in the study, it would seem prudent to feed bitches some non-commercial animal products, including meat during lactation. The results support the hypothesis that exposure to non sterile food constituents very early in life might protect from Canine Atopic Dermatitis" http://www.benthamsc...V003/73TODJ.pdf

Thanks and keep your fingers crossed Day 36 from ovulation today and Grace has already lost her svelte figure and is getting noticeably rounder. Demanding plenty of attention and food too LOL!

Are patellas a problem with your breed? I always think of it as a small dog problem Yes they can be a problem. Definitely not just an issue for small breeds.

I use Breedmate, but there are other programs out there that do it as well. COI is really just a number though. Unless you have the information on the dogs behind the names you really don't have much.

The best way to determine is by calculating inbreeding coefficients (COI) and don't ask me how as I use a pedigree program that does it automatically. 0% COI in 10 generations can probably be called an outcross. The higher the COI the higher the degree of relatedness in the pedigree. Some pedigrees may not 'look' to have a high COI just by looking at the first few generations, but may be very high if you go back a few more.

The terms 'linebreeding' or 'outcrossing' at the end of the day really don't mean much. It is actually the REASONS you select the dogs that matter and how you do these types of matings. They are methods which can be used successfully or unsuccessfully depending on the information you use when employing them. Neither is in itself either 'good' or 'evil'. An outcross done just because it is an outcross or a linebreeding done just because it is a linebreeding achieves nothing.

A couple of examples of 'non-traditional' kenelling. Still on the 'cost and arm and a leg' side, but still interesting. http://www.waltham.c...-husbandry/270/ http://www.flickr.co...N00/4995000618/ Mary Roslin Williams' book 'Reach for the Stars: Formerly Advanced Labrador Breeding' is a great practical read on the subject of having a successful breeding kennel while restricting numbers (and how lots does not necessarily mean better). This!! It is very similar to the methods I use here, and as you say I suspect many with multiple dogs use this type of arrangement. With multiple entire dogs of different sexes having the facilities to separate them safely at different times is certianly necessary. Dogs also NEED sunshine to be healthy and reproduce effectively. Myra Savant Harris interestingly writes about the rise of the 'dog room' and how this has actually affected reproduction in a negative way, so keeping dogs in the house ALL the time is also not the answer in many respects. IMO having a setup that is designed to permit clean, healthy, low stress and safe access to the outdoors is just as important as giving a dog access to a 'home' environment. Whatever setup is employed it needs to be set up in such a way that it minimises stress. Dogs who do not get on or need to be separated for many reasons can sometimes be just as stressed by a 'home' situation which is inadequately designed for separation or 'rotation', as they may be in a kennel setup. There has to be a 'happy (but flexible) medium' somewhere.

I think there is a big difference between a dog that sees its owner every day like you do Steve, and one that is rarely touched, if at all, as per the old 'mythology'. I guess what I was trying to say originally though is that the dogs have always worked with some level of oversight as the type of farming/livestock management they were used for traditionally was more intensive than some of the methods used in the US and Australia. The maremma going 'feral' issue though is one we have experienced herabouts. I know a lady whose Maremma (new to her and her property admittedly - she had had her just over a week) escaped from the yard she was in when they had a thief/intruder open the gates on their property. They tracked her for about 80km to the outskirts of Canberra once they figured out where she went. Despite months and months (and now over a year) of looking and at least several sightings in the early parts she has not been able to be caught/found. But in the meantime and incidental to her search, several Maremma who were living 'rough' on the fringes of the city and avoiding capture have been trapped by her! There is currently one notorious one living around the outer suburb of Franklin in the ACT for a couple of years that has successfully evaded all attempts at befriending or capture. It has been photographed quite often, and seen MANY times, but no way this dog is getting caught.

As Diva mentions, the ANKC restricts parent to sibling and full brother/sister matings, but half brother/sister and grandparent to grand(puppy) matings are permitted. When it comes to passing on issues such as orhopaedic problems, they can only be passed if the two dogs carry the genes to pass it. If they don't have the genes, they can not pass them on. Doesn't matter if the dog is linebred/inbred or an outcross in this respect (in fact line/in breeding can be a useful tool for consolidating GOOD genes as you have less unknowns to deal with). Note that orthopaedic issues being largely polygenetic and also affected by environment they are hard to pin down in ANY dog.

A different and interesting way of feeding pups you need to supplement:

First thing that springs to my mind is Mycoplasma. Note that Clavamox is not effective against Mycoplasma. http://www.stca.biz/...gens&Itemid=100 http://www.stca.biz/...gens&Itemid=100 Posting this too in case it helps: http://www.midwoof.c...ReproIssues.pdf Pretty much everything except the Symplex-F is available in Australia. I have been using much of this this time around with my now pregnant bitch. Different situaiton to yours but she missed/possibly resorbed early twice beforehand so I have been doing everything I can think of. Can't say if this has helped, as there were lots of other factors as well, but can't say it didnt help either. There is a good Group in FB that Myra Savant has a hand in that may pull up a few ideas too: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/groups/CanineFertilityReproductionNeonateIssues/

But that temp has been debated in this thread even. Is that expectation that they will work more independently than is traditional contributing to them being a dog that is more 'standoffish' ???? And to build on that , is it this type of dog that is less suited to the show ring than a dog with a 'traditional' working temperament (ie better suited to life working in partnership with shepherds)?

But in that adaptation, how are they being changed from what the breed is traditionally 'meant' to be......