Alison03

It's a phenomenon called 'blame the victim', Trudy. A scenario that lives in the head of the person who blames the victim. Totally and absolutely agree with this comment. I might add its usually bullies who are afflicted with this phenomenon. Keep fighting the good fight Trudy. Thanks everyone for your support. I generally come across two types of off leash dog walkers, the ones with the excitable dogs are the bullies, they seem to be very defensive if anyone objects to their dog getting up close and personal, it's like they've come out to get in a fight, and having their dog off leash works for them every time, they have this superior attitude that shouts "I've got a big dog be careful what you say to me". Then there's the other type who walk passed with their dog like a shadow that doesn't look left or right, those I like, however both types are doing something illegal which may one day be also classed as menacing. Bullies are angry at the world and want to pass on their pain to anyone they come across who seems weaker than them.

It's a phenomenon called 'blame the victim', Trudy. A scenario that lives in the head of the person who blames the victim. Yes I think you are right, the abundance of victims is very inconvenient to the members of the off leash culture, so trying to discredit them is their only defense.

Yes accidents happens. But we don't need to go and drive on the wrong side of the road just because we're confident drivers. If people want to live on the "wild side" they should do so in their own little space and shouldn't be putting the public at risk. Now I know people who've witnessed off-lead dogs tear up an on-lead dogs in front of it's owners. Guts flying everywhere. I've had many close calls myself. Little dogs rushing at us. My quick thinking has saved many off-lead dogs lives. So yes I do scan a head and I am aware of my surroundings. So I'd rather be aware then ignorant. I agree wholeheartedly, aware and alert beats the hell out of panic stricken. I can not personally justify carrying a maglite or a stick or cattle prod no matter how many unfriendly dogs we've come across. It honestly stinks of all kinds of crazy to me and I really have to bow out of this ridiculous thread now. It's infuriating from both sides of the argument, you should not have your dogs ambling free off lead, there's not any real need, however if shit happens and my dog happened to say get out after a break in, or snap his collar or something else happen and some loony beat him or sprayed him I would be beyond furious and as much as you have a right to defend your own, so would I. And I would. Friendly off lead dogs don't bother me in the slightest, but it's law as the majority are troublesome or less than controlled, but from the other side of the fence you really need to assess the situation at hand before losing your mind and whipping out a cattle prod. Perhaps if you really are considering arming yourself because walks in your neighborhood are so traumatic for you, it might be best to think about a dog treadmill or an acreage or something. I really would be more concerned about some unauthorised person carrying a concealed weapon than a dog. Oh and I'll just leave this here too, from www.police.vic.gov.au So what do you suggest us crazies do if a loose dog is attacking our dogs? Imagine I'm walking my 12 year shih tzu and some bigger dog rushes at us and grabs him and shakes him. What is the non-crazy thing to do in your opinion? Yes do tell Steph, we are all ears. What would you do in that circumstance? A concealed telescopic baton (If I can get my hands on one)would be my choice of weapon. Ill happily pay the fine. And since I'm a'crazy' the fine should be a reduced one. ;) ;) Oh and BTW for 12 yrs I lived on a small acreage. I had to fence in a large house paddock for my dogs. Had packs of the neighbourhood's dogs wondering through it looking to attack stock,native animals and my Border collies. Unfortunately there's no escaping idiot dog owners. No escaping them, that appears to be true, mores the pity. Many years ago I had a farm behind my property, a neighbors dog got on to the farm and harrassed the sheep, the farmer followed the dog back to its house and shot it dead in its own back garden, and he got away with it too. Something to do with having farm stock attacked. We were all horrified that he followed the dog and shot it, but now I understand why he did it, now I have more experience of what dogs are capable of. That farmer knew the dog would be back now it had a taste for lambs. BTW the owners of the dog had been warned several times and the farmer had made sure those warnings went on record at the council.

Yes Bozzie, I've got one of these, it didn't fill me with confidence or have much of an affect on any dog. I may not have given it a fair trial however. The spray I use (I do not own the company) gives me more confidence, which makes my body language look a bit more formidable too.

There is at least one member of this forum who feels my experiences with off leash dogs are really a symptom of me having some kind of "contributing factor" , perhaps over the last 50 years I've hallucinated every one if them. Razor is right if he thinks I'm mad, I'm actually bloody furious that doing something as simple as walking a dog can be made so unpleasant by the careless and the inconsiderate. Sounds like you feel the same way.

Yes accidents happens. But we don't need to go and drive on the wrong side of the road just because we're confident drivers. If people want to live on the "wild side" they should do so in their own little space and shouldn't be putting the public at risk. Now I know people who've witnessed off-lead dogs tear up an on-lead dogs in front of it's owners. Guts flying everywhere. I've had many close calls myself. Little dogs rushing at us. My quick thinking has saved many off-lead dogs lives. So yes I do scan a head and I am aware of my surroundings. So I'd rather be aware then ignorant. I agree wholeheartedly, aware and alert beats the hell out of panic stricken. I can not personally justify carrying a maglite or a stick or cattle prod no matter how many unfriendly dogs we've come across. It honestly stinks of all kinds of crazy to me and I really have to bow out of this ridiculous thread now. It's infuriating from both sides of the argument, you should not have your dogs ambling free off lead, there's not any real need, however if shit happens and my dog happened to say get out after a break in, or snap his collar or something else happen and some loony beat him or sprayed him I would be beyond furious and as much as you have a right to defend your own, so would I. And I would. Friendly off lead dogs don't bother me in the slightest, but it's law as the majority are troublesome or less than controlled, but from the other side of the fence you really need to assess the situation at hand before losing your mind and whipping out a cattle prod. Perhaps if you really are considering arming yourself because walks in your neighborhood are so traumatic for you, it might be best to think about a dog treadmill or an acreage or something. I really would be more concerned about some unauthorised person carrying a concealed weapon than a dog. Oh and I'll just leave this here too, from www.police.vic.gov.au So what do you suggest us crazies do if a loose dog is attacking our dogs? Imagine I'm walking my 12 year shih tzu and some bigger dog rushes at us and grabs him and shakes him. What is the non-crazy thing to do in your opinion? Yes do tell Steph, we are all ears. What would you do in that circumstance?

It was my open golf umbrella that saved me and my dog when we got attacked, thank God it was raining that day or I wouldn't have had it with me, its the reason I didn't get bitten, the dogs bit the umbrella instead. I can imagine how scary it would be to navigate around off leash dogs with your dog not 100% fit. I've had a ball come past me out of nowhere and a Dobermann fly past after it in a suburban walkway. After a few more ball tosses I politely informed the owner that my rotator cuff muscles didn't need any further work out from my dogs lunging after the ball. No doubt I was 'hysterical'. Oh yes we mustn't be hysterical that would be awful. I hate becoming that woman in the park who objects to off leash dogs getting in my space but I'll keep objecting until the owners get a grip on their pets. I'm aware they love their dogs but I don't need to be knocked over by their darling and then get a cursory "Oh sorry he was only playing". I congratulate you on your crusade. Your problem is that you fail to understand that and off lead dog does not automatically result in an out of control dog. Every second post from you is you regaling us with a terrifying story where you have been rushed/attacked/mauled by and out if control dog. These dogs and owners have not been in control, have not been acting responsibly or with consideration. At no point have I said this behaviour is ok. It's getting to the point now where these things seem to be happening with such intensity and frequency to you, coupled with the fact that your experience is so extremely different to mine and many other dog owners I know, that I'm starting to think maybe you have some other contributing factors. Well your problem is that you like to point out other peoples problems and ignore your own. I suppose everyone else on this forum who has been attacked are making it up or are completely mad. The fact you strut around with a large off leash dog would put a lot of other dogs off going near you or perhaps you live in a gated community, I've no idea why you haven't been harassed or attacked, as I don't know you anymore than you know me, I can't even make an educated guess as to why you walk around in a protective bubble and I don't. The fact I am probably 20 or more years older than you may have something to do with my larger amount of experiences which stem back to when I was a child in the 60's. I was attacked by two off leash dogs on the nature strip outside my house, which will be a matter of public record somewhere, I have been rushed many times by large dogs some who have made contact with me and some who haven't. I have never actually been bitten more from good luck than anything else. The area I live in is semi rural many people have several dogs on their large properties, some used for hunting, as were the ones who attacked us. I don't care whether you believe that or not. If you really seriously think that an off leash dog is as under as much control as an on leash dog, then you are the one who is delusional.

It was my open golf umbrella that saved me and my dog when we got attacked, thank God it was raining that day or I wouldn't have had it with me, its the reason I didn't get bitten, the dogs bit the umbrella instead. I can imagine how scary it would be to navigate around off leash dogs with your dog not 100% fit. I've had a ball come past me out of nowhere and a Dobermann fly past after it in a suburban walkway. After a few more ball tosses I politely informed the owner that my rotator cuff muscles didn't need any further work out from my dogs lunging after the ball. No doubt I was 'hysterical'. Oh yes we mustn't be hysterical that would be awful. I hate becoming that woman in the park who objects to off leash dogs getting in my space but I'll keep objecting until the owners get a grip on their pets. I'm aware they love their dogs but I don't need to be knocked over by their darling and then get a cursory "Oh sorry he was only playing".

Well I'm glad I've got through and made myself understood, I'm not the only one on this thread who feels the same way. But thanks for keeping count. : ) Hey Trudy, Thank you for making the effort to reply to everyone. Its clear that some people have never been in the position we have been. Its also clear that some younger, stronger people don't have the fear us more 'mature' less strong people have. The feeling of helplessness is truly debilitating . I spent 2 hours giving a statement to a council ranger last week. She told me to always carry a large stick as dog attacks will never stop. Some of the stories she told me were truly horrific. Shealso had a little dog herself who had been badly mauled. It never seems to stop. The only good news she had was that since desexing of pet shop puppies had been made compulsory in our area a few years ago , less strays were roaming the streets . Less strays mean less attacks so at least thats a bit of good news. :) I'm sure a couple of people on this forum think I'm on a crusade and they are dead right. The few that have been howled down for defending the off leash culture don't like being told that they are living in a democracy and the rest of us don't like what they are doing. If something I say makes someone use a leash or fix that broken fence that will be great, even if they never breath a word to a soul of why they took those steps. I'd rather speak than stay silent and just hope things change, for things to stay the same all we have to do is nothing. I had a lengthy interview with the animal control lady, she told me roughly the same things you were, it's scary when you realize the attacks we had are more common than we ever imagined. She told me not to go to off leash areas, then she hesitated and said "Look just don't walk your little dog, there are too many big dogs out there who have not been socialized to small dogs, they see them as prey" turned out her little dog had been killed in front of her. She said take a stick if you must walk and use it, no court will have a problem with someone defending themselves while under attack by off leash dogs, there would be a huge media backlash if they tried. She also said that a lot of larger breeds were attacked, guide dogs for instance, or just larger dogs being walked on leash becoming targets for off leash dogs. She thought it was because some owners of the larger breeds seem to have no concept of how dangerous their dog could be and the damage it can inflict. People have to view their dogs realistically, see them for what they are, a predator, be aware that there lovely temperament can change on a dime, keep them leashed and in secure yards and we'll all be happier. :)

The other owners not helping seems to be a bit of a theme. The owners of the dog that attacked me and my dog left me laying on the frigging nature strip and walked back into their house. I think that upset me the most. Bloody hell here was me thinking I was the only person that got no help at all, this seems to be the same story being told. What the hells wrong with these people, what happened to basic human kindness. If this ever happens again ring the police, don't hesitate, you were assaulted you will have a case. I rang the rangers actually. I think the people are mainly embarrassed and want to get the hell away. Still leaving you lying on the nature strip is a shameful thing to do to anyone. Glad you rang the ranger. :)

Good on you for getting the Labs owners to face up to their responsibilities, sometimes it just needs someone to have a word, so many don't though, I used to be one of them. I had an Am Staff type dog attach himself to us on our walk once, he walked at heel next to me and was a perfect gentleman, I was scared to death but managed not to show it (this was in my pre attack days), I got berated by another walker with her dog on a lead for not having him leashed, I said in a low voice "He's not my dog, please don't shout". I don't think she believed me. When I got to my drive I said "Good boy Go home" and off he trotted and I got in my house quick sharp. I've since found out he attached himself to many walkers but a braver person than me leashed him and called the council. I hope he didn't get PTS.

The other owners not helping seems to be a bit of a theme. The owners of the dog that attacked me and my dog left me laying on the frigging nature strip and walked back into their house. I think that upset me the most. Bloody hell here was me thinking I was the only person that got no help at all, this seems to be the same story being told. What the hells wrong with these people, what happened to basic human kindness. If this ever happens again ring the police, don't hesitate, you were assaulted you will have a case.

That's just an awful experience for anyone to have, and shame on the owner of the off leash dogs, I imagine he's still applying to be a member of the human race as we speak and the cattle dog owner is in the same queue with him. I used to think that all people are basically good but stories like that shake my faith. I'm glad you got your boy back onto the bridge, it's amazing how strong you become when you have too. You did the right thing by contacting the local council, if these inconsiderate people don't get checked, their dogs will keep on doing the same thing to other people. They say "Fences make good neighbours" well add some gates and a leash to that and that will make really good neighbours. :)

Well I'm glad I've got through and made myself understood, I'm not the only one on this thread who feels the same way. But thanks for keeping count. : )

I'm more of the opinion that if everyone obeyed the law and kept their dogs leashed as they are supposed too, then none of this would be an issue Don't you think being rushed by unfriendly dogs only twice as you said, is twice too many times, what if your dog had been attacked and killed on one of those occasions, would that have been ok because it only happened twice. I know what would happen your posts on this forum would be very close to looking like mine for a start. If you think the amount of dog attacks isn't that bad then you haven't been paying attention at all, only a few weeks ago two elderly ladies were attacked in separate incidents, one is still in hospital, then their was the lady who was attacked while pushing her child in a pram, they may be isolated incidents but they feel pretty bloody disastrous if they happen to you or someone you love. If you still feel its ok and in fact beneficial for everyone to have the experience of meeting off leash dogs, you should have realised from reading the other posts on here today that you are in the minority. Seeing as the rest of us aren't as enlightened and downright superior as you and Razor, please go and live on Razors desert island (I suggested he bought one for himself) and have a blast off leash there, i do hope Toby likes your dog or you could have a problem. Defensive much? Please point out where I said I was walking MY dogs offlead? As for my experiences with 2 unfriendly dogs - one was a very large Rottweiler, and the other was a small fluffy... guess which one actually frightened my dogs the most? Do you hear me ranting on about either breed type and calling them "wolves" or the like? They were 2 ISOLATED incidents - either of which could have ended badly if I had over-reacted to the threat... I'm not claiming to be any more enlightened or superior to anyone else here - but maybe, just maybe, my being calm and rational and standing my ground when under threat might be why neither incident escalated to a full blown attack by those dogs. In the case of the small fluffy bailing up my Dane cross and scaring her witless - that little dog was nasty - it went for me when I stood between it and my terrified "horse-puppy" - but I calmly asked it's owner to please come and secure it while we went past... up until that point the owner of the off lead fluffy thought it was extremely funny that their little dog was attacking my dog and myself. Maybe it was the tone in my voice, but they quickly secured their dog and let us pass without further incident - but I could hear them passing snide comments and laughing at me and my huge "scaredy-cat dog" as I walked off... *sigh* As for the Rottweiler - let's just say that at the time I was walking my own 2 Rotties - both of whom hid behind me when the strange one tried to bail us up. Rotties don't frighten me (funnily enough), so I just raised my voice and put some growl in it, and firmly let the approaching dog (and it's owner some distance away) that I meant business. The owner then called their dog away before I did something to it they weren't going to like. I will also admit that I have been trained in handling dangerous dogs - so maybe my reaction to perceived threats by dogs is a bit different to some here... which doesn't mean that I'm poo-pooing your reactions, just that I think they may be a bit more over the top than my own. That said, I've long held a fear of small yappy/bitey dogs - Pembroke Corgis in particular frighten me stupid - go figure? T. Sorry I didn't see this post till now, I've been flat out answering all the others. Yes I am defensive, I was appalled when I came on this forum and saw quite a few people defending what I think is an indefensible position, which is having your dog off leash, which is both illegal and dangerous. When you wrote something along the lines of "Everyone should have the experience of meeting an off leash dog" I assumed that meant you were one of those people, my apologies if you are not, however by making that statement you are encouraging the off leash people to keep on doing what they feel is their right to do, when it is in fact the wrong thing to do. Being an enabler to wrongdoers doesn't work for me either. Until I was attacked by the two off leash dogs I was rock solid, I stood my ground in all circumstances, I never ran or made silly noises and my dog would always move behind me and also make no sound whatsoever, that method served us well for three years, every time we were rushed by a dog it worked fabulously, until that one day when the two large dogs called my bluff and grabbed my dog. My nerve broke after that, theres nothing like doing battle with two large predators to cause you to falter. If that never happens to you then I'm happy for you, you have been luckier than me, I'm sure your experience with dangerous dogs protects you in ways I haven't even thought about. I'm amazed that Rotties don't frighten you because they scare me shitless, but thats me, I can't change my experiences and what they have done to me anymore than you can. If everyone followed the leash laws, I wouldn't have the fears I have and I wouldn't have to be unpleasant to people who are probably very nice.

Applying this logic , if i am a superb driver and have a high performance car, I should be able to drive it at any speed I deem appropriate provided I accept the consequences of my driving. And bugger what other people want eh? Bugger the fact that I may cause concern to others who don't know me or my car or my driving. What about the consequences of your risk assessment FOR OTHERS? Did they get any consideration? I hope at least that you carry a leash with you and use it if requested to by oncoming dog owners. I've never been at fault in an accident. I have aftermarket performance brakes which were quite expensive. My tyres are also up there as well. I have a good solid suspension set up. I also have a great relationship with my car. So I think I've taken precautions. Weighed out the risk. Now it makes it more safe for me to speed?? Well hang on a minute, have you done a calculated risk assessment in case you kill someone while speeding, because when you are in court it could make all the difference telling the judge that you involved everyone else in your risk and they seemed ok with it or probably would have been ok with it if you'd actually told them all they were in your risk assessment. I'm sure the judge would let you off, no worries mate.

ETA: Quote is from the article I posted earlier ;) http://www.atlbanana.com/local-dog-owner-struggling-with-off-leash-addiction/ I think it hits the spot perfectly, annoying the shit out of people must be the real reason the off leashers do it, all that shite about being one with their dog is just the excuse that sounds good. We may need to do an intervention on some of them. :laugh:

It was my open golf umbrella that saved me and my dog when we got attacked, thank God it was raining that day or I wouldn't have had it with me, its the reason I didn't get bitten, the dogs bit the umbrella instead. I can imagine how scary it would be to navigate around off leash dogs with your dog not 100% fit.

Protecting a small dog is not as simple as you think. Picking up a small dog when a loose dog comes trotting over in your direction is one thing, but try doing that when a dog that truly means business comes out of nowhere with such speed and force that you don't even have time to blink before it's on top of your dog... And that is usually how it happens.

Maybe I'll grab a group of "nicely behaved off lead dogs" and release them into the neighbourhood. Just to let people know what a pleasure it can be to have a dog rush up to you.. Hmm interesting idea, let me know when you are going to do it, I'll stay home that day.

As much as I would love to have a legal weapon that would stop an aggressive dog in its tracks, I can't think of one that would not kill or seriously injure the dog, pepper spray won't kill but it can blow back on the user and anyone else who happens to be around. I'm hoping one day someone will come up with one, all we've got now that is legal and harmless to the dog is Spray Shield, it won't stop a truly focussed dog however. Thank you for telling us about your experience with having your dog off leash, there are a few dog owners on this forum who are completely convinced nothing unforeseen could happen to their off leash dog, they need to hear what has happened to others. :)

If that's a pic of you in your avatar, you look like a youngish fit bloke. More capable of defending yourself & your dog than perhaps a lot of others in this thread. It can be hard to imagine being vulnerable when you haven't been put in that position a lot. Exactly. Absolutely, empathy isn't always present in everyone.

I'm not sure why some dog owners prefer to walk their dogs off leash, I've asked and asked but haven't received a satisfactory answer, other than thats what they want to do and they feel its worth the risk to them to do it. Apparently the rest of us taking the risk with them doesn't factor into their calculations. Doesn't make rational sense to me at all. As you say its not hard to do the right thing.

Well said Noishe. Scouts a gorgeous looking dog. :)

OK point taken, I am clearly the person with the small dog you may be referring too or one of them at least, I am telling my experiences from my point of view, I've never owned a large dog I've only ever been attacked by some and rushed by many. I have never been rushed by a Chihuahua or any other small dog so I wouldn't know how scary that is, small dogs don't find me as attractive as the large variety obviously as I have a whole list of those I could tell you about. Also another fact you can agree with or not, is that being attacked by a large dog is far more frightening as they can do a huge amount of damage that can and has proved to be fatal in some cases. I've yet to hear of death by Shihtzu. I'm glad to hear you didn't feel as panicky with a small dog when you saw another dog approaching, but if I made it two large off leash dogs intent on killing your little dog I can assure you that panicky feeling would return and stay for many months. I do accept that it must be very annoying to have a small dog harass a large non reactive dog, or a reactive dog, all I can say is those small dogs must be on a suicide mission to attempt it, but i can see if the large dog tried to free itself from the annoyance it could well be blamed for whatever happens, which isn't right. My small dog doesn't appear to be as daft in the head as some of its type. I have been told by my vet to never pick up my dog if I get attacked as that can cause the large dog to jump up, which will then have me and my dog on the floor, also some people have been badly bitten by picking up their little and medium sized dogs as the attacking dog starts biting and gets the human too. Since we were attacked by two large dogs I have started picking my dog up despite this advice, as I figure I'd rather the dog bit me than tore my dog apart in front of me. My little tiny dog is precious to me as I'm sure your dogs are to you, and the sight of two large powerful nasty dogs (because believe me that is what they were) trying to tear her in half has left a lasting impression on me, as it would on anyone with a heartbeat, so you will have to excuse my aversion to large dogs of the off leash variety as I will excuse your aversion to little tiny precious dogs. I am not saying and have not said that all large dogs are nasty and vicious, I have just said that some of the ones I've encountered have been, I am sure there are many sweet tempered large dogs as I'm certain there are many ill tempered spoilt little dogs that have never been disciplined.(My little dog is not one of those) However given the choice I would much rather be rushed by a Chihuahua in a bad mood than a much larger dog. Small dogs are very easy to deflect being lighter in weight, the last large dog that rushed me knocked me flat on my back. Let us agree on one point, if all dog owners kept their dogs leashed and under control regardless of size and breed, we wouldn't be having this conversation. :)