DesertDobes

Bad news The lump was a spindle cell sarcoma. Highly malignant and likely to metastasize to organs. The results also indicated that the sarcoma cells extended to the edge of the biopsy sample so quite likely that they didn't get it all. The Vet surgeon used a burring tool to remove it so thinks there is a small chance that he might have got clear margins but unlikely. So now we watch and wait. Good news is that Sniper is still fit and healthy, very happy and the surgery has definitely improved his quality of life, so I still feel like it was the right decision for him. Please cross all your fingers and toes for him that it doesn't come back.

Haha I know there are LOTS of impoverished dog owners!

Yep money well spent!

I picked Sniper up yesterday afternoon and he was super happy to see me. He was sound asleep when the Vet took me around to the kennels to get him, the Vet said "Sniper, your mums here." and Sniper didn't move and I was worried about how much pain he was in, or that he was really out of it, but once I said hello to him he went crazy! He was crying and all wiggly bummed and he kept looking up at me like "I thought you'd left me forever!". The nurses came out to give him a cuddle good bye and he wasn't very grateful but I think he was worried they were going to take him back. He's on a lot of pain relief but is eating like a horse and seems quite comfortable, and he has pain patches and anti-inflammatories for a while. The Vet did such an awesome job, even though Sniper is missing three teeth and some bone, his profile looks the same as before, not even any swelling really. Almost the best news is that he will be able to have bones again in a few weeks, he hasn't been able to chew anything for a few months so I think he will really enjoy that. Hopefully the pathology is good. Now I am extremely poor and will be living off baked beans for a month while I pay off my credit card!

Thanks for the well wishes, he is still at the vets (he spent the night on IV pain relief) but hopefully he will be discharged soon. The vets have sent me a few photos of him, everyone loves him and has been giving him lots of cuddles there. For anyone who might go through the same thing, we ended up getting a third opinion on Snipers lump and vet no 3 thought that it is a ossifying epulis (benign) and that removal would probably be curative- so I hope that is the case. The surgery was to remove the lump, all of the affected bone, which was mainly tooth sockets, a few teeth around where the lump was including his lower canine on that side, and two pre-molars. The tumor is going to be sent off to pathology to find out exactly what it was. Can't wait to get him home

Sniper is off to have his lump removed today, keep your fingers crossed for him

There is a specialist in Darwin but I think referrals have to go through my vet, is that kind of what you mean? If there was somewhere I could ask for advice that would probably help me decide what to do. I'm happy he's happy too This whole thing has definitely made me a better dog owner because I get off my butt to do things with him and Savannah more often and I really prioritise going for walks and playing with them more than I used to.

Yes you think it would be better to have some illness or disease that isn't making them feel terrible, but then it makes the decision on when to say goodbye so much harder. I've never had to decide on when is the right time to PTS, my two previous dogs- one died in his sleep at fifteen years of age and the other died from a snake bite very suddenly.

It started bleeding a little bit last night and doesn't seem to be stopping so this may force me to make a decision sooner rather than later it's not much blood (just seeping out a bit) but a sign perhaps that things are changing. I have trust issues with the larger vet surgeries in Alice Springs, but major surgery is one situation where I feel that they are at least set up very well and have staff on round the clock which my regular vet doesn't.

Here we are in April now, 4 months with this thing in Snipers mouth. It has gotten a lot bigger but has kept growing up and out and doesn't appear to be spreading into his gums or jaw elsewhere, he doesn't have anything else wrong with him and also the ulcers on the growth seem to have abated. He is still eating well, playful and enjoying his walks. He does drool a lot though, I think his jowls aren't as good as holding everything in as they used to be. My feeling is the growth is some sort of benign growth, he has had a lot of other random lumps pop up in other places. So if it's benign, that is good and also makes him a good candidate to have it removed as it probably won't spread anywhere else. I'm still uncertain about this as there isn't any vets with lots of surgical experience with mandibulectomys where I am.... my regular vet offered to de bulk it but I think that would be a waste of time as it would just grow back I think. I'm not sure I could have him put down just because of this thing in his mouth, and probably the longer I let it go on without making a decision, the more difficult any surgery will be, but I don't want to put him through extreme surgery and ruin his quality of life.

@freewill My two dobies are fantastic with kids, see kids as ball dispensing slaves!! But they were raised with kids and I very carefully supervised all interactions when my son and dogs were young and with any visiting kids to make sure no one (including my dogs) got hurt or scared. Just want to point out - no breed of dog is guaranteed to tolerate children, and all dogs should be supervised around small kids. Case in point, one of my close relatives has a toddler who is very very rough with the family dogs, climbs on them, scruffs them. Their dogs are putting up with it (for now) but the problem is the child therefore has no concept of not doing the same thing to other dogs who wouldn't take it so well. As far as Dobermann health, I have a dog who is seven and a half and has a mouth tumor, but his sister, my other dog, is in perfect health and mother is 12 years and in perfect health, father just passed away recently at the age of 13 , other siblings have no major health issues, so I don't think of them as an unhealthy breed and you could certainly expect a dobe to live into their teens these days. They can be over-represented in veterinary literature, but remember it was a very popular breed in the states where a lot of the literature comes from and unscrupulous breeding certainly occurred to keep up with public demand. Among the dobermanns I know, there are few health problems, and genetic testing for Von Willebrands and Dilated Cardiomyopathy is standard among registered breeders. I would most certainly not pay $900 for a older dobe with no papers! Put that money towards a well bred and healthy puppy (expect to pay ~ 1500- 2000) or get a rescue dobe which are often advertised on dobermann club websites- and either way supervise your kids with any dog. I attached a photo of my beautiful boys at the beach

Yep, it definitely seemed like Snipers tumor got much, much bigger after biopsy. The growth finally seems to have slowed down a bit this week, maybe the Apocaps starting to have an effect but last night he was running in his sleep nearly all night. I don't know what that means, I though he was having seizures because it just went on an on, but every time I touched him he woke up and looked at me like "what do you want?" I took him to the vet just to get weighed and he has put on five kg since we were on holidays. Probably all the extra goodies he's getting now, like slow cooked chicken, lamb necks and liver haha Thanks @Dame Danny's Darling, that's a good idea. Wow 17 years is fantastic, go Jeune!

Sorry to hear that tdierikx, I had never heard of these cancers before but apparently they are very common. Awful stuff.

I do think about that a lot, it would be great for us humans to go through life the same way!

We've had a sad few weeks, it seems this tumor has really taken off. Sniper is still in very good health otherwise (Bugger actually ran off on me a few days ago following a scent while we were bush walking and it took me an hour to find him) but the lump is very big now. He can still close his mouth as normal but there are big ulcers, mainly where the tumor is in contact with something else like his upper lip. I'm just taking it a day at a time, as long as he is happy to eat and still likes going on walks and playing then I think he's not suffering too much. I also don't notice him licking at it or really making any indication it's a problem for him. This is a dog who licks everything so I don't think he would suffer in silence. We started Apocaps and K9 immunity plus to help his immune system fight the tumor, our holistic vet has given us some traditional chinese medicine too. I feel like maybe in the last few days the tumor has become less red, and maybe smaller but that could be wishful thinking. The ulcers have been a problem, I've been putting slippery elm on them before and after food and walks but I'm going to ask the vet for something stronger. I tried putting a cotton bud soaked in Aspirin on it last weekend, Sniper seemed to like it but not sure it did anything. I was trying to remember if Aspirin stings on a normal mouth ulcer? Anyway, that's where we are at. It is about 10 weeks since I first noticed it and seven weeks since he had a biopsy.

I know @sarsplodicus The first vet we went to told me Sniper was old for a dobermann and I thought he isn't really. His Dad passed away just recently at 12 years of age and mum is same age and fit as a fiddle. I'm going back to our regular vet next week to discuss palliative/ pain relief options, I don't think we would do the biopsy and xrays again as I don't want to have half of his jaw removed and that is the only treatment option. I've attached a (blurry) photo of what it looks like now, a cherry red colour all over.

@trifecta Sorry to hear that..... I think it's very early days for Sniper, the lump has grown quite a bit even in the past week and is now looking quite red. Not sure if it's ulcerated but that is one thing the vet said to look out for as a progression of what ever it is. Yes, in my internet research and taking to the vet I have become aware of all the different mouth tumors, unfortunately I think the fact it's in his mouth means it will interfere with eating, drinking and playing if it keeps growing. I don't think it's bothering him as yet but it's hard to tell, I know he has a high pain threshold anyway. I'm trying to be aware of if he is licking his chops more than usual or rubbing his face- anything unusual that could indicate he is in discomfort.

Thanks Trifecta, all these oral things sound terrible. Did Rogan last long after diagnosis, the vet mentioned that some of these oral tumors have a survival time of less than six weeks. At the moment we still don't know what Sniper has. Pathology results were inconclusive, there are some cells present that are associated with growth in the bone socket for the tooth that are over-reactive but not cancerous. The xrays show possible loss of bone density but not the swiss cheese appearance of an osteosarcoma(?) There is swelling of the bone but that is inflammatory apparently, like when you get a bump on the head. So for now we are just watching and waiting and probably repeat the process again in six weeks if that's in his best interests. I've attached a photo, this was after his biopsy so the intial outer lumpy bit is missing but you can see the swelling near the canine and extending in towards the midline of his mouth. Thats the inflammatory bone swelling. Most of the growth is in between the canine and the premolar behind it. Anyway he's happy and eating/ playing normally at the moment and there is a small chance it is nothing so at the moment I'm just spoiling him rotten, I patted him non stop for two hours through a movie the other night haha, everytime I tried to have a rest he would look at me and whine or paw my hand- naughty thing!

I just wanted to share my experience as it sounds similar- my female dobe is a high level garbage guts and she was vomiting bile up for a few weeks but seemed well and happy otherwise so I didn't think too much of it. Then one night she started vomiting lots and also having heaps of bloody and runny poos. So of we rush to vets in the middle of the night, they put her on fluids, sedated her, did an xray on her tummy and found a big old knob of bone stuck in there. Turns out she had found an old bit of beef marrow bone somewhere and because it was summer, the bone was essentially cooked in the sun, therefore making it un-digestable for her. She eventually threw up the bone, just when she was about to have surgery to remove it. It was very smooth on the edges like it had been rolling around in her stomach for a while! Also she was chronically car sick for the first two years of her life but after that incident she never threw up in the car again!

Just picked Sniper up, nothing to be seen in the chest x rays which is good, now to wait for results of biopsy.

Thanks for the well wishes He's having his biopsy and chest and jaw xrays right now, got a nice text from one of the vet nurses to say they were just about to start and they would look after him for me, made me a bit teary (again). Sniper marched into the vet full of excitement, that makes it a bit easier. Vet was excellent in explaining the process and has lots of experience with oral tumors which put my mind at rest that I'm doing everything I can at this point in time. Will update after I hear if there was anything on the xrays

Hi All, It's been a while since I've visited dolforums but I'm looking for some advice with oral tumors. Sniper is my 7 year old Dobermann, the week before christmas I noticed a small grey lump behind one canine on his lower jaw, I thought it looked a bit dodgy because it wasn't sore to touch and I assumed that an ulcer or cyst would be painful. We were on holidays and I couldn't see a vet until after new years and also couldn't do much googling being out of reliable mobile coverage a lot of the time so didn't worry too much about it! I consulted a locum vet (only one available) and she tried to get a FNA on the lump but couldn't find anything except blood and bacteria so put him on a course of antibiotics. I thought that something bacterial was pretty unlikely because of the lack of pain and sure enough the antibiotics did nothing. The lump has grown rapidly, it's on the outside of the lower canine and grey and lumpy but also on the inside of that tooth there is swelling which extends into the centre of his jaw. They grey lumpy bit now bleeds when Sniper plays with is toys although he is still without pain and can still manage to chew up bones although my impression is he tries to keep it on the lump free side. Tomorrow Sniper is going in for a biopsy, from my research I feel like the diagnosis should included chest xrays and lymph biopsies and that ultimately the lump needs to be removed because even if it isn't malignant it is still fast growing and bleeding and therefore not something I want to leave in his mouth. The vet doing the biopsy is another locum but supposedly one who has experience with this kind of thing and will be around for a few weeks at least to make the diagnosis, then I think I will chat with my regular vet who is on holidays and who is a holistic vet to talk about options. I'm basically fearing the worst but trying to prepare myself and also think about how I will pursue treatment for Sniper. I alternate between wanting to aggressively pursue all potential methods of treatment : mandibulectomy, chemo, radio therapy and immunotherapy, and then other days when I think I should just let nature take it's course because the prognosis won't be good even with all that treatment if its malignant. Anybody been through this before and have any advice, especially what to ask tomorrow? Results for biopsy could take a week or two and the not knowing is doing my head in

A lot!! I'm saving $10K as a starting point to import a Beauceron from Europe. Unless the dog is from a very short list of countries which are rabies free it needs to be a certain age to be vaccinated against rabies, then a bloodtest carried out a month later to ensure it has the requisite antibodies. The pre export process takes around 6 months from what I know, so a puppy won't really be a puppy by the time it clears quarantine. The application costs about $500, then quarantine is about $150 a day, plus required vet visits pre and post export, plus the air travel, any difference in the cost of the dog compared to Australia is going to be pretty trivial in the big scheme of things.

My dogs have loved to gnaw on turkey neck as a puppy, too big to swallow whole. They literally do suck the meat off but perfectly safe for them to swallow if they can as long as it's a swallowable size! Chicken bones are very soft when raw and dogs stomach acid is well suited for breaking down bones. I'm not one to subscribe to taking food off dogs anyway but its useful to train a leave it command in case they are into something dangerous. Then they leave their resource rather than you taking it off them. I did this (and I am no expert so do your own research and use your own judgement) by having the puppy on lead while eating, walk puppy away from food while saying leave it, then reward with something they go crazy for which for my dogs is currently smoked things like a small bit of salami or bacon or sardines if you don't mind the smell and mess. Then let them go back to the food so they know that if they leave their resource when you ask they get to go back to it after you have given an even better snack. This wouldn't work well with a bone because they will just take it with them so needs to be food in a bowl. If you are feeding dry dog food, you can dole out all the daily rations as training rewards so the food comes directly from you too, but this doesn't work so well for sloppy raw diets.

hhmm yes, seemed a bit of an over reaction because the trial had a grand total of 10 dogs entered! They were just being pedantic (and some interclub politics too I imagine) but I guess it's a warning to anyone who might travel a long way to spectate with their dog- best to ask the trial manager so you know for sure.