Kavik

Nobody said the Schutzhund club was a behaviour clinic (neither are obedience clubs) but the one I have been to was very helpful to people in a range of ways, not just for competition. People don't only come to clubs to polish their competition performance (though they may do that too). They may come with a new pup or a dog that needs to work through some peoblems, or need help with motivation etc. I was mainly saying that since Malinois are a popular breed choice for Schutzhund, there would likely be people at a Schutzhund club who would be able to help with problem behaviour as they would be experienced in the breed and its traits. Most clubs are there to help people, and enjoy helping people and their dogs, regardless of what stage their training is at.

Bull Arab You know you can use a clicker and food or tug rewards as well as a check chain or prong collar? They are not mutually exclusive.

They did not say they wanted to trial the dog in Schutzhund or do protection? They have the dog they do, and are trying to improve its behaviour, you shouldn't go telling everyone they should reject their dog if they are having problems with it, which is how your posts come across. A Schutzhund club is more likely to be able to help them with reactive behaviour, and would have a good understanding of Malinois behaviour and drives. And you shouldn't automatically discount any tool which cannot be used in a trial situation - they can be very useful in helping to get a difficult dog under control. You can't have any type of collar on your dog in some agility trials ;)

It doesn't sound like the club is going to be that receptive to what you want to do anyway, I would cut my losses and look for a club that is going to be more in line with what you want to do. I understand, I have a reactive dog and personally I found the majority of dog clubs to have no idea how to help, and the majority of other classmates do not listen when you tell them not to approach with their other dogs or other people - they just don't understand what you are trying to do or how your dog will react. It is difficult to find the right club especially if you have a reactive one. Even if you get them to allow you to use a pinch collar (which I highly doubt as they are ANKC affiliated), you confronting them about it and pushing it that far is not going to endear yourself to them or get them to want to help you with your dog.

It really sounds like a Schutzhund club would be more up your ally than an ANKC obedience club from what you have said you have done with your other dog. More likely to do your style of training, know more about your breed and its drive/temperament and be able to help you reach your desired goal. Many ANKC obedience clubs are not equipped to deal with high drive reactive dogs, and are either focussed on pet manners or competition obedience. A SchH club will allow you to use your collar of choice. An ANKC affiliated club will not let you use a pinch collar. It doesn't matter how much of a stink you cause, they do not use pinch collars. Are you anywhere near a SchH club?

kelpiechick Most people who I talk to use shadow handling to mean flatwork, usually circle work.

wuffles, what about using rewards that you are allowed to use in the ring? I don't do obedience but I think you are allowed to pat and verbally praise dog between exercises (after 'exercise finished' ? Some people also have taught a hand touch? or similar trick the dog enjoys.

What about training at a Schutzhund club? Probably in a better position to help you anyway. given the breed and your circumstances

It is their club and they can decide what training equipment to allow on dogs they train there. Might be best to find a club which allows them? Which could be difficult. Personally I know of only 1 club that allows them and they are obviously not ANKC affiliated. Suing may not only not work (pretty sure they can decide these rules) but if it does you are always going tp be fighting them, does not make for a good start to the relatioinship. Is there no way you could train without one?

Yep no ANKC affiliated clubs allow the use of prong or e collars

More the you want to play with the tennis ball more than the tug thing. Sounds like a similar way to deal with the same problem. Going well here. Have decided not to play with his favourite toy since the trial and he is going well with the new one Still working on getting him to bring it back but this is improving (he is no longer trying to take off with it, and is bringing it back with some help - lead is useful lol). Have decided to get this solid before introducing distractions.

I sympathise, I have an allergic dog too. So frustrating

aussielover - this is what Susan Garrett calls don't wanna don't hafta. If the dog likes tug and will usually do it as a reward, but decides say this time that it would rather have the treats so won't tug but is waiting for you to give them the treat instead. What she suggests is to move the distraction further away/make it less exciting but it is important that you get them tugging in its presence, even if it is just a little tug, or they will continue to do this throughout working with you. She says best to sort these issues out early rather than have them creep up in training. She wants her dogs to take whatever reward they are offered - food or tug - and not refuse one for the other - and works on this from when they are puppies. In my case, Kaos really likes a particular toy and will hang out for that rather than tug. So I am going to work up to getting him to tug in its presence, starting with an empty treat bag on the ground. Having talked to Vickie, it seems Steve has a similar way to work through this problem.

I have been told the same thing skip - if you offer the tug they MUST tug. Including annoying them until they do. And it is when he doesn't want to that I also feel uncomfortable trying to get him to tug. You are doing a great job - I saw that tugging at the other trial! I think though that I was (as usual ) going too fast and skipping steps. Trying to get him to tug out of the yard and in the presence of other things he preferred at the same time all at once. So now I am going to break it down and work on getting him to tug in the presence of the other distracting motivators while still in the familiarity of the yard. That familiar location will also allow me to play more comfortably with him (I get self conscious about it if unsure whether he will do it) and build my confidence that he will tug. Only then will I take it on the road. I think I will be able to do it without teaching tug for food - he does like tugging, I was just putting too much pressure on it. I think using a toy he is more likely to like outside the yard as well as in should help too.

He won't tug yet in the presence of my treat bag at home. He is tugging in the front yard now though I think my progression is going to be: * Tug in Front yard (also work on send, fetch and retrieve, need to work on getting him to bring it back better) * Tug in front yard with empty treat bag on the ground * Tug in front yard with empty treat bag on my person * Tug in front yard with treats in treat bag on the ground * Tug in front yard with treats in treat bag on my person * Tug in front yard with favourite toy on other side of fence * Tug in front yard with favourite toy in treat bag on the ground * Tug in front yard with favourite toy in treat bag on my person * Tug in front yard with favourite toy in my hand * Take the tugging to the park, and also use it as our fetch toy * Take the tugging to training, and also use it as our fetch toy Yes, I think it may take a while please feel free to let me know if you think I missed a step

Ok, what you do is little tug in the yard with the leash on the dog. Then take him out the front and try a little tug then walk down the street and try a little tug and keep trying little tug every 10 minutes as you walking along. If the dog wont tug, put it away and enjoy happy walk then the next day do the same thing. The dog will be learning the tug game away from the yard and in the end he should tug most of time. If you be pressuring him to tug or show him stress from you becuase he wont tug will make it worse and ,my opinion is little bit of tug and let him win it, let it go and let him have it then lots of praising when he win. Joe Yes you see the bolded bit about not showing how I feel about it is the part I am having problems with changing. That is all about me, not about the dog, and something I have to change. Unfortunately knowing that and doing it is not the same

Absolutely IMO! At the end of the day when you only have the dog in front of you to work with, do what you can to make training awesome for that dog. Kavik at the risk of sounding like K9 Pro ;) one thing I've learnt about tugging especially is that you can't want your dog to tug more than your dog wants to tug! Also as someone who suffers BAD nerves in the ring, the other thing I've been focusing on rather than trying to change myself is triggering my dog as I would in the ring (i.e. saying a quiet and controlled 'ready' with little body language like I know I will say it at the start post, rather than a big excited "READY?" with lots of excited body language like I do in training). Yeah I know, silly handler I think I can make progress by using the ball on a string as I am more confident he will like it out and about and I'm sure my confidence in whether he will play with it is a big part of it as it affects how I play with him. The question is can I be disciplined enough regarding his favourite toy to move enough value to another toy.

I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me I think I want the tugging too much and act too desperate and not fun enough When we are in the yard and I am comfortable and confident he will tug, he is fine and we have fun, but when we are out and I am unsure whether he will tug, I am more self conscious about it and he won't play. Changing my emotions and how I interact and play the game is going to be difficult. I am going to try to make it easier by aiming for tugging on a ball on a string (starting wiyh one that squeaks which he likes) rather than a tug toy

Re how close he was - some dogs have springs for legs! Including bull breeds.

Yep, he's the one I think of when I think Papillon!

The paps I have met have been cool little dogs! The ones I have seen do agility. Very zippy and yes rather vocal dogs.

Have you changed his exercise schedule at all? If he is not getting as much exercise as usual he may need to get the beans out :D I haven't noticed a difference with my dogs

Nerve is important, but you can't use nerve as an excuse or reason for everything the dog won't do. It is not all the dog's fault. You have to take some responsibility as the trainer. Whether it is the way the exercise like tug is introduced to the dog, the way the handler plays and acts around the dog, any suppression work the handler has done, these things can make a difference. And in the end, you have to work with the dog you have. You can't go on getting more and more dogs because the dog you have isn't working as well as you'd like! You can research and get the best dog you can in terms of drive and nerve, but you may still make mistakes which have to be worked through, which may relate to the dog working n drive.

I am pretty sure that if someone experienced with teaching tug had my dog from a pup he would be tugging, I just managed to stuff it up He has taught me very well which is his preferred toy which is one of these (his fav is the blue cat) http://www.ozpetshop.com.au/product_info.php/products_id/1875

I agree with Vickie. I haven't trained specifically for the distance challenge, but the majority of the time we are able to get it if I can set up the line. The only thing I have done which I think helped was the one jump obstacle focus work which helps with them running a line in Susan Garrett's One Jump DVD. The only ones which we really have problems with are the ones which require directional changes and the dog working two jumps ahead of you (like yesterday's Open Jumping course ). Mostly I just set him up and keep my mouth shut