Kavik

The salary sounds right to me - low paying and very physically demanding

I think I've only seen one or two Irish (none at agility that I can think of. Couple of Airedales though).

Also, how many dogs manage to reach their potential regardless of initial drive? That lies with the handler and the training. Mine certainly haven't - working on that :D

Thanks Lyndsay

What about a dog who initially shows disinterest or avoidance for a game of ball and, through training, ends up looking exactly the same as one who has been an obsessive retriever from 6 weeks? High, medium or low retrieve drive? Vickie to be honest, I think the path you describe tends to cause the breeding of dogs who are trait deficient, call me old school but a pup who showed avoidance or disinterest didn't have it in the blood and we wouldn't select that pup. As training methods evolve to generate drive into dogs who are genetically lacking in my belief contributes to the wrong dogs being bred based on training standards not nature. I have seen this happen with gun dogs over the years where a lot of hard work in training has show cased a dog into excellence which by nature was only average, then everyone wants a pup or a stud from that dog?. I like the raw abilty by preference for the future of breed performance. But couldn't the avoidance or disinterest come from the owner trying to suppress drive (because that is what they thought they wanted, or possibly accidentally)? So the dog doesn't want to express the drive/worried about doing so? Rather than the dog being low drive.

TheCoat But I think a dog could be high drive but untrained, so the drive wouldn't have been channeled into a useful activity or the dog wouldn't have learned how to focus itself.

That is a very good point.

Kaos hardly drops any coat - it is great! I get more off Zoe when I brush her than Kaos but still nothing compared to Diesel.

Did someone say SPEED!

Both of these clips show high drive dogs - as I said in another thread different breeds may look different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjCAJ7wghY Actually Michael Ellis has another clip where he explains about externalising and internalising drive which was interesting too.

Not trying to be rude but are kelpies REALLY low to non shedding? All the ones I have come across seem to shed quite abit? Obviously not as much as some dogs but i would never have thought of them as low -non... happy to be corrected thou There is quite a variation amongst Kelpie coats. My two have different coats, Zoe's being longer, softer and thicker, Kaos's being shorter, harsher and less undercoat. I don't know if I would say they are low shedding, but anything is compared to my GSD Lyndsay - Are Irish's OK with other dogs? What I have read on them says they can like a scrap. Beautiful dogs - love their size, build and appearance

I think that is the most important bit. The energy/behaviour needs to be able to be harnessed to be useful. Hyperactivity that cannot be harnessed is not useful, nor is highly strung that cannot be focussed.

There is one that sprays a jet of cold air I think?

It depends on what you mean by seriousness. BCs and Kelpies are often high drive but a serious BC or Kelpie is different to a serious Malinois or GSD. They do different things.

Also might be a good idea to look at the dogs he reacts to - say for eg the Rotty/staffy at the vet. Look at their posture and body language. Was it quite upright and forward (even if they just wanted to greet)? I have found that mine are more likely to react to a dog with forward body language that could be interpreted as rude/challenging/dominant.

confident high drive biddable/compliant strong nerves good/practical conformation - medium build, not extreme features, agile If I could add a 6th - medium sized wash and wear like Inevitablue Kelpies have the physical attributes, some of the temperament attributes depend on lines

Thanks TSD for your comments :D I do like SG's stuff but I'm starting to find the marketing juggernaut and SG groupies a little too much. Reminds me of my natural horsemanship days, I thought I'd escaped that Kavik I was the same about IYC and CG in the early days - I think because I did next to none of that stuff with Darcy as a young dog and she turned out pretty good. I've definitely done them with Zee and now Darcy as an older dog, more for my benefit in a training sense than anything else. Zee is pretty good at them in a training sense, but translate those skills to real life and Darcy kicks her butt. There are local groups whose marketing is just as fierce I like SG's free webinars. Rewatching the CG DVD atm - still to decide . . . I've heard you have to do it for Recallers.

He sounds like a hoot amypie

Yes this is brilliant experience and should help to make me a better trainer and help me when I face similar challenges with the next dog.

Ah, bringing it back - still a work in progress for us He is on lead so can't run off, he is starting to get better about choosing to bring it back happily rather than stand there and ignore me, but a way to go yet. I am glad that he is not a big dog and I can swing him around

That's awesome TSD! Kaos is 5 1/2 so a long history of getting away with not tugging when he decided he didn't want to. Whether we can get to the point of tugging at trials I don't know, but we are giving it a go, treating tugging as a separate exercise at the moment. I am still training atm with other rewards at training classes, so not as hard core about it as I could be, but I am not prepared to stop going altogether until we can tug. Susan Garrett has great ideas and she is also very good at coming up with names for her concepts that are catchy and get her ideas/methods across. ETA: this is why I am tempted to do Recallers and her Contacts course - she is able to distill her ideas well and is good at getting them across, and are about building on your relationship with the dog as well as the mechanics of the exercise. I haven't done Crate Games or It's Yer Choice still making my mind up about them. They are the backbone of her program, naughty me just picking and choosing what to do atm

I haven't added food yet that will be a challenge!

A small training brag (but Susan Garrett said to celebrate the small successes!) - I got Kaos to tug around his empty treat bag! One of my problems had been that if I went out wearing my treat bag, he wouldn't tug (he wanted his favourite toy or food rather than tug). So I decided to start small with the distractions with an empty treat bag on the ground a distance away from where we were tugging. He went to check out the treat bag but then did come back to tug! :D

12 yr old Kelpie X - female - desexed 7.5 yr old GSD - male - desexed 5.5 yr old Kelpie - male - desexed The oldest girl is dog aggressive towards strange dogs but gets along with my other dogs, though she can be a bit of a resource guarder. The boys are best friends

There are 2 clubs at Castle Hill. Agility Dog Club of NSW trains at Castle Hill Showground on Thursday evenings http://www.agility.org.au/ Paws 4 Fun train at Eric Mobbs Reserve, Excelsior Rd, Castle Hill on Sunday afternoons/evenings http://www.paws4fun.org.au/ ADC is a much bigger, busier club affiliated with DogsNSW, Paws 4 Fun is a much smaller, quieter club affiliated with ADAA.