Kavik

A few of things: 1: The first week of foundation on the line long does not teach heel. 2: There are no leash corrections in the first week. 3: The first three days of the first week require the handler to put a 15’ line on the dog and walk from point A to point B without stopping and without paying any attention to the dog, you then take a short break and walk from B to C, take a break and then walk from C to D and so forth. If the dog forges ahead, even if it pulls you the whole way, you do not do anything other than keep walking until you reach your designated point B. If it lags you ignore it and keep walking. Basically you ignore the dog completely. You do this for 20mins twice a day for three days. There are no about turns in the first three days. On the fourth day, if the dog forges you DO NOT GIVE A LEASH CORRECTION, you simply turn around and go the other way. You may think this is just semantics but it is not. After three days of work on the 15’ line the dog knows full well how long the line is. The only reason the dog gets caught on the leash is because he has failed to pay attention to the handler. If a dog was tied to a tree and then ran out to the end of the line and got caught would you say the tree had corrected him? The only important thing that is going on here is from the dog’s point of view, not yours or the handler. The dog no more blames the human than he would if he was tied to a tree. Koehler allows the dog to experience the consequences of his own actions through experience. The same way that all living animals learn, through experience. The long line works as reinforcement. And no, the dog is not reinforced by being caught out by the line. Rather the behaviour that is being taught here (which is specifically not heeling) is reinforced every time the dog avoids being caught by the line. And more importantly the behaviour is self-reinforcing – that is why Koehler specifically instructs the handler not to speak or even look at the dog during the first week. For if the behaviour is to become self-reinforcing the dog must work it out himself. Which if you have trained your dog using this method, you know happens very quickly. What is being taught here is not reinforcement, but rather self-reinforcement. Something which in my humble opinion is far more motivating to a dog than anything we have to give him, whether it be praise, treats or toys. The first week of training is called the Foundation – there is a reason for that. I do not mean to give offense here, but the only way to truly understand the method is to train a dog using it. Anyone who has used the method (as written in the book) knows full well that the reward/ correction ratio is, as I said, about 100 to 1 in favour of reward. I didn't see any rewards in what you wrote. No need for me to try the method since I can use methods which use games and engagement with the handler and controlling the dog's access to reinforcement. Interestingly you can train this bit Koehler allows the dog to experience the consequences of his own actions through experience.by using positive methods which do not include using the leash There is a very well known positive trainer who does exactly this - the dog learns through its choices - even her games have choice in the title ;)

Well I have the book right here (decided I have to read it to see what all the fuss is about ;) ), he teaches heeling through leash corrections on a long line when the dog forges at all, no voice all silent. Also the way he writes it is like a battle between you and the dog. Sounds like plenty of corrections to me!

From your last post, sounds more like unguided, misdirected prey drive - chasing and biting at moving objects. Am Bulldogs can have a decent amount of prey drive. Also remember that this dog may not be like your last dog, may not have the same temperament or issues and may not require the same training. I know it is hard to get past it when you have had a difficult time with the last dog.

I stated in an above post that I have no problem with methods that use corrections as well as rewards, but Koehler is pretty heavy handed in his use of corrections, including in teaching new exercises. If I had a Bull Terrier I would look for a trainer who can get good results with non traditional obedience breeds. If looking for a trainer who uses both rewards and if necessary corrections, I agree with Kelpie-i that K9Pro would be a good person to contact for training in NSW. He does have a complete package/system for his training if that is what you are looking for.

From what I know about Bull Terriers, you need a sense of humour with their training, I'm not sure they are a breed that would be brought to their best using such a traditional, corrections based training system.

Good luck with your guys too. I haven't met many White Swiss Shepherds

I like that it is based on Karrawarra lines and that he says he is breeding for compliance (the area that it is perceived that BCs have it over the Kelpies, and the reason some have suggested I get a BC next). He was also very helpful on the phone and seemed like a nice guy. Some WKC breeders are not too keen to sell to agility homes, Scott was helpful and listened to what I was looking for. I will have a look at Karmala as well, thanks.

Does your current dog have aggression issues as well? There are trainers that use corrections without using Keohler's system - it is possible to combine the use of rewards and the use of corrections if you wish.

Why do you want to use Koehler's system?

I'll let you know

I found this to be the most important thing I had to learn with Weez. Me too!

Here is the obedience from French Ring - has impressive jumps but not fast like agility - the sport is not in Australia though

After a google search, that video is of International Rescuedog Organisation certification - so Search and Rescue dogs. VERY different to how you would want an agility dog to perform. If you want to do jumping like that, obedience is the way to go, or IPO obedience is like that too.

Thanks kelpiechick! I have a few people trying to persuade me to change teams ;) and I can see why they suggest it and they are probably right. At the moment though I think I will stay :D

How are you finding that they are different?

Here you go http://www.wkc.org.au/Characteristics.php

Has anyone tried these toys out? Tuffut Long & Lovely Lambie Dog Toy Squiggle It I'm looking for an exciting type of tug that is reasonably strong and won't pick up bindis too easily from the ground.

GSDs herd differently to BCs and Kelpies, so when looking for someone to help you you would want someone familiar with the way they work (more of a mobile fence) Here is an article showing the differences in working styles in a number of shepherding breeds. It is a bit long. http://www.herdingontheweb.com/workingstyles.htm

Currently liking these guys http://www.barruworkingkelpies.com/Barru_Working_Kelpies/Barru_Working_Kelpies.html The breeder was easy to talk to and keen to talk about his dogs and helpful when I said I was after a dog for agility. Haven't seen any of his dogs in person yet though - hoping to get a chance to see them next year some time.

Jumping is FAST :D Some dogs prefer jumping courses as they may not be as confident on the contact obstacles or weaves, and it can be more flowing. If you want to do jumping without the speed element, you could do obedience, the higher levels have jumping but it is not the same speed/angled jumping that is in agility.

Wow, not many people switch teams to come in this direction I'm currently researching where to get my next sports dog and have found a breeder that looks promiing (WKC reg) just need to fimd the time to go the 6hrs to meet their dogs It all comes down to what you are looking for - and research what the breeders are breeding for, and try to find a match. Even within working lines there is variation in temperament and build depending on what the breeder's aim is - yard, paddock, all-round, 3-sheep, cattle, what type of ground etc

Weasels, in appearance I have the same preference - natural dog appearance and also prefer a sporting temp and I prefer a short coat, though there is one brachy in my picks and a few longhairs, some categories were hard, and some I picked I wouldn't own, just my preference in that group.

Enjoying the content Bit behind though. Need to get OH on board for Call Once (he doesn't like to help - will be a challenge), doing it on my own atm which is great but he cottons on and won't leave me alone. Luke is too young to help but is a good distraction . Finding the time to start Crate Games is going to be hard. Weekends are the obvious time but crazy time of year - between Friday and Wednesday I have 5 Xmas parties

You wouldn't want to do much jumping or obstacle work until after 12 months or so, but there is a lot of foundation work to do with body swareness and following your body and other things that you can do from a puppy.

Shibas are in Utility ;) Whoops Jap Spitz then