Kavik

You can teach good manners and making good choices through having fun

Which is exactly what Koehler is doing. It is a silly or supeficial understanding to say that Koehler is not engaged in an activity with the dog simply because the first week of training (training, is that not an activity between dog and handler?)the dog is ignored. The dog is ignored precisely to get his attention on the handler so that a co-operative activity may begin - namely training. Ignoring the dog cannot produce engagement in the way that Ellis is describing. With Koehler the dog is aware of the handler to avoid the leash pop. Not the same thing at all.

If that is what is expected in obedience it certainly killed any desire I had to give it another go lol doesn't look like fun at all. Now THIS is fun!

No is isn't Kavik. Koehler gets engagement by ignoring the dog. If you saw the first week of training on the long line, you would clearly see the engagement (or attention as Koehler calls it) developing in the dog. No it is not the same as engagement. With Koehler the dog learns to pay attention to where the handler is as sort of a background thing because if he doesn't he gets a pop on the leash. Engagement is having the dog engage with you actively in an activity (play/tug/food/running etc). Engagement requires the attention of the dog and handler be on each other (which ignoring is NOT) - requires work on the handlers part as well as the dog's.

I think I've heard about the tattoo thing for white cats?

Now we have established that, we shouldn't have a problem with Koehler then, case solved :D Ellis does engagement work first before he teaches any behaviours - I posted a whole video on that! Engagement training is the opposite of what Koehler states he does at the beginning - as you said Koehler ignores the dog. Ellis uses food and toys to get engagement before training anything.

Push back and jam is my favourite! We already played something very similar, so he braces against my hand when he knows that is what we are doing - I can't push him back very far Have decided to really get into the hand touches and use them in the advanced way of then giving permission for environmental reward when we get there.

Great work LMSW! Well done getting that amount of focus and tugging in a busy environment

Now we have established that, we shouldn't have a problem with Koehler then, case solved :D Not sure how you can say I shouldn't have a problem with Koehler because I like the way Ellis and Balabanov train? They are very different.

Nowhere did I say that corrections are not necessary at all. In most of my posts I even stated that. The trainer most people have referred the OP to (K9Pro) does use corrections where appropriate. The only trainer I referenced here that does not use corrections is the video of SG's recall with her puppy Swagger. SG can train like this due to her foundation work which concentrates on both drive and self control/impulse control. This does not mean that there are no consequences for incorrect choices her dogs make - there are. Positive does not mean permissive. As far as I know the other trainers (Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov) do use corrections at times.

Glad it doesn't sound like anything serious KTB. I've only had dogs with black pigment so didn't comment earlier.

Would I be able to get the video too?

Very interesting article, thanks for sharing. I don't have a Dobe, be good to hear what the Dobe people think

If something is "rewarding to the dog", it really doesn't matter what you or I may want to call it. Ok if you are being pedantic - it is not a method which uses positive reinforcement. When I am talking about rewards based methods I am talking about positive reinforcement based methods. Not those which utilise mostly negative reinforcement. Why would you want to use mostly negative reinforcement anyway? Sounds like a combatative way to decide to train a dog.

They can maintain it for as long as they have been trained to maintain it, and how much drive the dog has. I guess it comes down to what you see as a reward. You could say the absence/removal of an ear pinch or colar tightening is rewarding to the dog (removal of unpleasant stimuli - more likely to repeat), but I would not call that a rewards based training method. While we are on Michael Ellis, a good video explaining engagement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t3VMY-IVuw&feature=related

Impressive dog 1) The people who have seen me do attention heeling at the shops or on walks (nowhere near that good!) have been impressed with my dog. Only time I got weird looks was when I was doing the food spitting technique outlined in an earlier Leerburg video lol. 2) No I would not think Michael Ellis would walk his dog in attention heel on a casual walk to the shops. He would probably do loose leash walking - there is no need to use Koehler for LLW - there are many rewards based methods (withor without corrections) that can be used to teach this. 3) I think the average dog owner is quite capable of using rewards based methods to teach whatever level of obedience they wish to achieve. If they don't wish to train attention heeling they don't have to - they are more than welcome to train a casual LLW. I am not currently training up a dog for competition obedience (my ob prospect has health issues)so am not training attention heeling atm, but mine can LLW fine. Sometimes they offer attention heeling (including the one who has never been taught attention heeling ever - sometimes for quite a distance too ) which I will pay. 4) I don't know how long the dog in the video can keep focus without reward - it is only a puppy. That is certainly the tricky part of competition obedience - it is quite a long time for them to work well. You would build up duration. It would depend on the training and on the dog and handler. Since I have seen some great vids of dogs, esp SchH dogs, with great attention during the whole routine, it can be done

I realised that when I get my next dog, the early months are going to be VERY busy with getting pup to tug in all environments, overcoming DWDH and the foundation work such as this course provides. Kinda glad I get to practice it all on Kaos first! And yes, having more fun and not taking training too seriously is on my list too!

Thought this might be appropriate lol

I really think that the important thing as many people have said is that this new dog is NOT your old dog. Different dog, different breed, from a different source, and you have probably already done different training. While I understand the fear that this dog could develop the same problems as your last dog (my old dog is dog aggressive, it has been hard not to let the fear of that occurring with my younger dogs rule my training), it is important not to let that rule your relationship. Your new dog may have no inclination to chase bikes. Your old dog probably needed a different approach to what you were able to find with the trainers you accessed (though he may not have needed Koehler either), your young dog may need a different approach than your old dog. Like I said in a previous post, my OH's bully and others I have met are great at passive resistance. I think controlling access to reinforcement (including environmental reinforcement) would be a useful tool with a breed not known for its biddable nature in regards to obedience.

With all these awesome rewards based training methods now available that get great results and are a lot of fun, I just don't understand why someone would WANT to use Koehler.

I'm impressed with Michael Ellis's tugging DVD and would be very pleased if my dog worked like that (though Ivan Balabanov is the one in vid I posted). Certainly horses for courses and all that, and if your happy with the results that is fine, it certainly does depend on what your aim is for your dog - some methods are better for some things and also suit some people better.

I want my dog to work for me happily and keenly and to have FUN training him (that is after all why we have them if they are not strictly working dogs - to have fun!). You can have fun training your dog and have him reliable too. Using Koehler would not work in my chosen sport anyway - you can not ever get the best out of a dog for agility using physical corrections. You would not get the speed, or the focus, drive and desire (plus it is not allowed). We have progressed so far from the mentality that you have to MAKE the dog obey using physical methods. Here is someone who does not use corrections - and whose puppy has an impressive recall off of distractions And here is a world wide well respected trainer whose OB and SchH training is admired - and he certainly does not use Koehler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Gx8ZD7tDc&feature=related

My OH had a bully when we first met. She was very good at passive resistance

Ok it is paying attention to the handler and where the handler is, but there are ways to do that which don't involve the leash

Obviously the behaviour being rewarded is staying within the boundaries of the long line. Being rewarded in this case being not hitting the end of the long line.