Kavik

I got upset because the video was posted on FB by someone who supports rescue but who I didn't expect to have that opinion. And then had people agree with it.

That mum sounds as sensible as people I see bringing their pups up to say hi to dogs that are tied up at training, or right up to jump on crates with dogs in them.

This is the ad which got me upset

Don't get me wrong, at 12 she now tugs for the first time ever (a little, but hey, she is 12!), does MANY tricks, training every day, chase a ball and regular walks, so I do plenty of stuff with her even though she is my oldest dog, but does not get to run offlead obviously or meet other dogs.

I wish I knew what I know now when I got Zoe, maybe she would be better, maybe not, I feel guilty that I didn't know enough to fix her or bring her to her potential, but I also don't think that anybody deserves to go through that, and most dogs are lovely and fine without half the work I put into her.

very well said, 100% agree. I don't think it's fair or appropriate to guilt people into getting rescues, but neither do I think it's fair to say that there are not enough rescues suitable for top sporting competition. You only have to look at the top dogs in any state in disciplines such as agility, flybsll, obed to see that a reasonable percentage of them are rescues. Itd be good if people took a little more responsibility for the impact that their training/handling has in relation to how successful their dogs are. I agree that there are some potential top sporting dogs in rescue, but you have to be good at temperament testing and also know where to find them, probably good networking would help. I don't feel confident in my ability to temperament test a pound dog to find a dog with a good temperament with sporting potential. I would trust you though With Zoe, I was not looking for a world winning agility dog, I was simply looking for a dog that I could give sports a go with and have fun with. She was to be my first real go at sports. I would most certainly have changed a lot of how I trained and socialised her (I will most certainly own my mistakes with her), however I did the best with what I knew at the time and I don't feel I did any worse than someone looking for just a pet would have done, the person who would have adopted her if I didn't. Most people would assume that puppy preschool, some off lead play at a dog park and obedience classes from 4 months would be enough to have a social dog.

You have done a great job with your guys Casima

I agree that there are more risks with getting a puppy, if I do rescue again it would be a young adult, which I would get carefully temperament tested. I had also assumed that a Kelpie X would have a suitable temperament for sports, I didn't know about temperament tests then. That other rescue thread is a worry, don't know anything about specific politics.

I said I would be more likely to find a suitable dog through a breeder. The temperament problems I have had with Zoe do occur in Kelpies, and it is something you have to be aware of and look for. Kelpies are my current breed of choice. I would like to avoid those temperament problems. Having been burnt once, I am hesitant to again purchase an unknown dog. I am sure anyone would do the same. I WOULD get a Greyhound through rescue as I know how carefully they are vetted and that they are generally gentle dogs and I would not be doing the same thing with a Greyhound as my Kelpies.

I don't think the rescue was unethical - I don't think Zoe's issues could really have been foreseen as a puppy so much. She was a bit timid and skittish (always hid under bed/scared of storms and fireworks etc), but her biggest problem of dog aggression didn't surface until around 5-6 months. Really the only thing they did wrong was assuming that all Kelpie crosses were going to be suitable for sports. If I had known better what to look for in a sports dog I would not have chosen her. I would have changed how I dealt with her socialisation too, but I really only did what most people would think is reasonable unless/until they have an experience which proves otherwise (going to dog parks).

I would like to rescue another dog at some point, but frankly I am terrified to considering the problems I have had with Zoe. I don't need another experience like that. Sure I know a LOT more now than I did before, but I am scared to risk it. If I ever do it would not be another puppy, and I would have someone I know and trust to help me assess the dog. There is a lot involved in what I would like to do with the dog, I do not need to be dealing with major issues as well.

Load of bullshit if you ask me. There are many reasons why someone may NEED a dog bred with certain traits - pedigree or not. Are we going to find all our guide dogs, military dogs, police dogs and service dogs in the pound now? I doubt it. What happens when all the "good" dogs run out? Do we wait for them to be dumped and recycled again? Like Agility dogs said - "My interest is not in rescuing dogs, it is in training dogs, the best I can do with the time I have is to make sure I look after my dogs and encourage others who I meet to do the same." People who think that all breeders should be banned need to look a little deeper. It's not that simple. Exactly! While there are certainly some nice dogs in rescue, there is no way there are enough good dogs with the traits desireable for a working or sports dog to fill those roles. There is a lot to do and learn if your aim is competition and I would like to give myself the best chance I can to do the best that I can which means starting with a suitable dog.

I have seen a couple of comments and a video on Facebook lately where people supporting rescue are saying that buying a dog from a pet shop OR breeder means one less dog adopted from the pound (or one pound dog dying) - or comments that thank goodness they went to the pound rather than a breeder. I find this view frustrating as it is just so wrong! It is not my fault there are dogs in the pound - I did not put them there! Their owners are the ones at fault, the ones that did not care for them. So they think it is fine to try to make me feel guilty about researching fully the breeders where I intend to get my next dog to ensure I get the one that suits me best? I want to improve my training skills and aim for as high as I can get in competition, so am looking for a particular type of dog. My first attempt at finding a suitable dog in rescue did not go well. I certainly think it would be easier to find a suitable dog by finding someone who breeds for the attributes I am looking for than to wade through the many dogs that for some reason people did not want to find a dog that has a suitable temperament, conformation and good health as well as one that I like to do what I aim to do. Certainly some of the guilt trips like an ad I saw today make me less likely to support rescue in general if that is what they think and certainly less likely to get a dog from a pound.

I'm sorry she's not well

Is she desexed? If so, when?

Here are the reasons I crate train: * Gives them a safe den that is theirs where they can feel safe * useful if the dog ever needs to be confined for illness/injury/grooming/at vet - they are already used to it and won't stress * This safe den can be their home away from home for travelling/holidays/training/competitions/seminars - somewhere they can relax in a strange environment, and you may be accepted in more places if your dog can be confined for periods. * helps with housetraining * somewhere safe if you think they may get into trouble in the house, or when tradespeople come or guests who don't like/are scared of dogs For your questions: * you can have beds and crates if you want * I have the crates always set up, but they can be folded for travel * I have one crate per dog (plus a few extra, one can't be folded anymore so I got a new one, kept the old one for house) and they are in same location but you can move them if you want * I would have the crates where there would be most activity, you could always move it upstairs at night so you can hear if puppy needs to toilet * I would put pup in crate from day 1 * fine to crate for short periods while you are home * you don't have to crate train if you don't want to, but they are a useful tool * I cover the crates in cool weather or when at training/competitions to reduce stimulation * I use crates for the life of the dog, but you don't have to * I don't leave water in the crates because mine would just spill it

Yep I find my Kelpie an interesting mix of 'hard' and 'soft'.

I agree. K9Pro for instance uses a training methodology of teach, train, proof. Pretty much the same methodology in principle as Koehler, so it doesn't surprise me that he would achieve consistent reliability. Teach, train, proof are just the phases of training, which all dog trainer students would learn. They would be the same no matter what training method you use. You teach the dog the behaviour and cue, then train the dog using the cue until it performs the behaviour reliably every time you ask, then you proof the behaviour using distractions. It doesn't matter if you used luring or shaping or corrections, the phases of training are always the same. Exactly Here is someone proofing their weave performance - does not mean they are using corrections or Koehler method ;) just testing the dog's understanding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V24s_nj-EOI&feature=player_embedded

Yep nice video showing how corrections can work to help the dog make the right choice. The dog is not physically corrected with a leash to teach it how to make the right choice.

Off leash reliability around distractions in everyday life? Sure :D

I chose everywhere but scratches.

Where are you? People can recommend clubs/trainers in your area. A lot of things are easier face to face. Most DVDs I can think of are quite specific as to a method or skill being taught.

I have my dogs for fun, train them and compete with them for fun. I am always learning and trying to improve myself and my dog. Of course problem behaviours are not fun though.

LOL. Of course heaven forbid teaching the dog to act responsibility. Being responsible means making the right choice even if you might at the moment prefer to do something else. If you never allow that choice, you may well train behavior, but you haven't trained responsibility. SG is ALL about CHOICE Starting small and then building up from there. The Crate Games clip shows it as does Its Yer Choice

Not if the dog has something more fun to do. You make sure the dog doesn't have something more fun to do As I said SG has a program doing just that. Self control/impulse control and motivation, no corrections. Consequences for poor choices? Certainly.