Kavik

A Malinois is on my one day list Not sure I'd be able to do justice to one yet though. I want to have a dog that I have taught to tug and to know how to use it effectively as a reward first.

Dead as in not moving, and when he lets go we start the game again. He seems to get that bit fine :D dasha - yes I am doing lots of research into where to get the next dog to try and find the attributes I want.

I really do like Michael Ellis's idea of using the play to build the retrieve. I would rather not use food in teaching the retrieve of the tug, I think that would cause the sorts of issues Nekhbet was talking about when trying to combine food and tugging. When mucking around with Zoe's tug (she is 12) I do use food, but you can tell that while she enjoys tug (well, for an old dog who has never been taught to tug before. I also have no problem with her retrieve, though she sometimes drops it) she is really in it for the food at the end. Kaos is in it for the toy and tugging and I would like to keep it that way. While I don't really plan on using tug like TID, probably more like SG does, I do like Michael's ideas on playing tug and how to get the retrieve and out. I don't really expect to get the level Michhael has, he has a Malinois, wired differently to a Kelpie.

My problem is that he LIKES possessing the toy more than bringing it back for another game. I do like how Michael Ellis explains it - the game is about you (dog) and me, the toy is just what we are using to play at the moment. I had been making it too much about him possessing/wanting the toy and not enough about the interaction between the two of us. Probably because I did a lot of frustration work with him to build drive when he was little. When I get him to out all I am doing is making the toy dead. We do have lots of fun when we tug, and put in plenty of effort :D ETA what I did before was similar to what you describe dasha and I think why I am having problems as he thinks I will take the toy away - can see me as more competition than cooperation.

OK this morning's session. Used different toy (leather rag I rolled and tied both ends, and put a rope on it). Initial interest and tug good, out and reengage good, then out and I showed him the toy, talked to him revving him and threw it. He went out keen but when he got there he just put his paws on it, like a prey pounce, instead of picking it up. It wasn't until I started reeling it back in that he grabbed it. Reeled it in, had a good play. Did this a few more times (and out/reengage) with similar results each time. Interesting.

You what? That seems a vast generalisation. Many coats on dogs have evolved as insulation against heat as well as cold, comments like this seem a little ignorant and potentially damaging to a breed's reputation. Plenty of coated breeds live and work successfully in hot climates without being "disabled". Well woopie dah for your dobie x! Also referring to GSDs as 'those things' is pretty offensive! There are just as many ppl out and abt who don't like dobes! (me not included). My dogs have the english style shepherd coat so no they don't walk at 11am in 35 degree heat, yet neither do I, plain stupid unless you and the dog absolutely have to! As ppl have said dogs evolved in places often quite different to where ppl keep them today, dogs with erect ears that can work, you want to pick on Huskies or Mals next? :rolleyes: I wasn't picking on any dogs. People were trying to say that you had a lot of choice if you wanted a dog with erect ears. I am arguing that I don't feel that's the case. I simply said a GSD wouldn't suit me - where I live heat tolerance is much more important than cold and my dogs sleep inside at night. If I moved to the snow, I would happily own a GSD. They are my second favourite breed of dog. Just right now and where I live, a dog with a short coat is going to be much more comfortable, and better able to accompany me when I exercise on days when the temperature is too hot really for a GSD to be outside, much less exercising. We are a very active family and I would hate to have to leave my dog at home. There are no breeds that I know of that have the working ability of the GSD, erect ears and a short coat. So if I could, I would have cropped my dog's ears - as the founder of the breed intended. Of course I'm happy with my dog anyway, I just think dogs in general (like all wild carnivores) are better with erect ears. What about a Dutch Shepherd?

That is very scary! I'm pretty sure mine would not be very helpful in protecting us, the most I could hope for is that they would bark at someone suspiscious at the fence/poking their head over.

He does enjoy tugging. I didn't know the best way to go about training tug when I got him, just tried a few things (it turns out not always the right things lol), and when I got stuck (when he wouldn't tug in a new place etc) I just left it as I didn't know how to get past it. I am pretty sure that if I knew what I was doing regarding tug when I got him, he would be tugging now no problem. I'm going to continue giving it a go, at least so I have a better idea of how to overcome tugging problems in the next dog. I'm sure even the best trainers had to find their feet with tug with the first dog they trained to do it. He works differently for food than toys. Obviously I use food for a lot of exercises but for some exercises he definitely works better for a toy, it just happens that his favourite toy is a thrown toy not a tug toy.

Just watching more of the DVD and in the Engagement section there is a Dutch Shepherd whose retrieve is similar to Kaos's - a bit hesitant and slow and the dog is possessive of the toy.

Thanks Nekhbet, will give it a try tomorrow and tell you how it goes. May try Ellis's idea for retrieve with a puppy who hasn't learnt to run off with the toy :laugh:

I didn't mean release as in make him stay first , more I would restrain with collar, throw toy, then release him/let go of collar. But by reeling him in, he still isn't choosing to bring the toy back? I'm hoping the dog doesn't do victory laps with it :laugh: I'm watching (still haven't finished) Michael Ellis's tug DVD, for his retrieve he lets the dog win it, then runs backwards encouraging the dog to come to him, then marks with a yes and continues tugging. I tried that and at first the dog wouldn't come towards me when I was running backwards (will do so a bit more now), so I thought I'd wait him out so it would be more fun if he brought it back and we could tug again. In agility, it is unlikely the dog would ever be weaving towards you, I don't think he ever would in the handling system I am using, unless maybe you were doing some complicated and strange lead out :laugh: and since you can get ahead of a dog in the weavers this is unlikely. So I haven't tried that scenario. I think we may have tried it once in training ages ago. Most weave proofing involves sending the dog ahead to the weaves, distance work, different angled entries, and using your body movement or other obstacles as distractions No time frame on this so I don't mind if it takes time :laugh: I'm sure it will take time to undo bad tug habits, just trying to figure out what will work

At the moment I am using a thrown toy for weavers as he just flies for this toy! Would be stoked if he would tug at agility. Mainly seeing how far I can go with tugging - might as well see if I can overcome these issues now so I have a better shot at getting it right with the next dog!

There are some he likes that he doesn't chew as much, I meant choosing one of those, not one he doesn't like. I was getting decent retrives and tugging with some toys, with this one he seems to be going back to chewing on it after I let him win after tugging. I'm sure that seeing me as the one taking it away is the problem (mistake I made when I first started teaching tug, will know better with next dog), which is why I was working on the retrieve, letting him win it, then what I found worked quite well (when he isn't chewing on it) was to wait him out, quiet 'good' when coming towards me and mark with 'yes' when he got to me and start the game again. Now I am only taking it off him like that if he is chewing on it, wasn't sure what else to do since it is self rewarding. OK are you suggesting put toy on rope, throw it then release dog, reel in toy and tug when he gets to me? I haven't been able to get him to tug in all environments, whereas he will take food anywhere - so yes hasn't been conditioned to take the prey reward over food. I have worked up slowly to being able to pick up food from treat bag and he will still tug. Treating it like a distraction. Some of the exercises in an online course I am doing at the moment require you to be able to switch from rewarding with food to rewarding with tug in the same session. Normally I start with tugging exercises and then finish with food exercises.

Sometimes it is better to be able to use a toy reward than food, depending on the exercise. And he does have good prey drive and loves toys - his favourite is a thrown toy though. If I am going to be able to use tugging as a reward, he has to be able to tug around food, we have actually made great progress with this so far. Weaving is an example of when you need to be able to use a thrown reward, and sending over jumps or through tunnels - when you want to reward forward movement away from you, and many trainers prefer you use a toy you can tug on than a ball as it is more interactive. So he needs to be able to bring it back to me. It is not the same as SchH training in drive. I don't think the two toy game would work - have tried it - he is more interested in the one he has. The amount of chewing he does seems to depend on the toy, this udder tug seems to be one he likes to chew. Maybe I should go to one he is less likely to chew for now. He really likes it though!

I should probably video it hey? That would make it easier to tell what is going on and whether what I am doing is helping or making it worse lol. Maybe I'll try to persuade OH to help me video it this weekend (wish me luck on that! :laugh: )

I am using tug as a prey item, and hopefully to be able to use it as a thrown reward as well as a reward on my person (not until these issues are fixed though). He doesn't chew so much when actually tugging, mainly when I let him win it to work on the retrieve, so he is still more interested in possessing it/playing with it himself than bringing it back to play with me.

Thought I'd see whether anyone was interested in discussing troubleshooting your dog's tugging with you. Our tugging has progressed nicely - he will now tug at various times of the day, front or backyard, and I can have my treat bag or his favourite toy in a clear container on the ground and pick them up, take off lids, and he will still tug. Had one successful session of combining food and tug rewards in the same exercise, but haven't been able to repeat the success (he didn't want to tug after getting the food, required a bit of effort on my part to get him tugging again.) My main issue continues to be two things which are linked - when he wins the tug I would like him to bring it straight back to me to continue the game. He tends to like to chew the tug, some more than others depending on the material, so getting him to stop chewing and getting him to retrieve still need improvement. I am trying the udder tugs atm - like this but no fringie bits http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3018 but also sometimes use a leather rag or a fake fur tug. He prefers softer ones that can flap around. He is probably less likely to chew a less stimulating tug, but he is also less likely to give me good tugging on one. At the moment, he has a leash on when tugging and if he tries to chew it I shorten it til he stops or if he lets go to chew it he loses it and I use frustration a bit in the hope that he learns he doesn't get to keep it if he chews on it. He will retrieve it to my hand but it could be faster, he can still at times be a bit hesitant to bring it back. Miles better than what it was before though. Any other ideas?

My GSD does not cope with the heat anywhere near as well as my Kelpies - but you would expect that as Kelpies were bred to do very well in Australian conditions.

I think I'll just enter one day. I find our problems start occuring when I try to enter too many trials too close together.

I prefer dogs with erect ears and I like breeds which are trainable - I don't see that there is a shortage of choice at all? For bigger dogs that can be protective - GSD, Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, medium dogs - Kelpie, Koolie OF course the temperament is not the same as a Dobermann - they are different breeds

It's the Imperial March from Star Wars but I'm not sure what that has to do with the car.

From memory your hands have to be in the same position at the start and end of the exercise - so you can start and end with hands in front of you or on the side but can't start with them by your side and after calling put them in front (extra signal).

I should really get organised and enter this! I haven't been to any trials since around Sept or so due to a focus/running off/interest in baby in pram problem, so am a bit nervous

I know nothing about retrieving but she was certainly fast and keen! Well done!

That's a good idea I did mine with come fore exercises (so luring), but he is pretty good at finding it by himself.