Kavik

I have some issues with him running out of the ring at trials. HAve had a few compliance issues with start lines too, though those have gotten better. Last year was more difficult because I had to bring a baby with me, so my time was a bit divided. He started running off to visit the pram. So there are times when he is choosing not to work/play with me. Hoping that tug/engagement work will help to improve that bond. I do feel it has improved a lot, both with tug and with the Recallers course I have done. Little bugger, I can hear him shredding his bedding! Although we did 2 training sessions and a walk it was very wet today so not as much active stuff as normal.

Timing and reading of dog is pretty good - he will keenly tug. He doesn't froth at the mouth :laugh: Sometimes vocalises. Yes he is an active dog that some think is a pain to live with :laugh: I wouldn't have him any other way

Hi Lablover Haven't got any video yet. Will see if I can between 2 kids and not always willing OH :laugh: For me - plans for dog are agility (we are competing at Excellent level at the moment). Kaos turns 6 in March. Carry items - not really. Loves to carry around his favourite fetch toy though. Tug with other dogs - I don't tend to leave toys out with them. Diesel carries stuff around more than the others and he is the one who will not tug at all :laugh: Obviously a natural tugger who doesn't get distracted is ideal. As many in this thread have pointed out, this is probably unlikely to occur in Kelpies, this is not a trait that Working Kelpie breeders look for, they concentrate on how the dog is on sheep. So I am going to have to work for it. Malinois, on the other hand :laugh: now bred primarily for manwork/bitesports, so tugging is paramount. Quite obvious in the DVD, in that they were happy to tug when the handling was not very good in a distracting environment.

I am only adding 'ready' when he is giving me attention. We only recently got Smoke Ya going properly (yay for getting it to work!) - but I am using food at the moment for this game. I think if I can get it to - before we do anything else he will give me attention and we tug - then we are ready! The good thing about adding distractions in the yard is that you have more control over the environment. His favourite toy and before dinner are going to be a challenge. I can have his favourite toy in a clear container and while he is tugging take the lid off and he will tug, though sometimes he will stop but I can get him tugging again around it. Haven't tried putting my hand in or trying to pick up the toy yet. I can also get him to tug around his empty food bowl.

Mine won't tug out of the yard. What I am doing is working on tugging around distractions in the yard - esp ones that create DWDH like food and other toys (and other people). And making sure that I am 100% sure that every time I go out to tug he will do it enthusiastically. Once I have that I will go out the front gate and tug there, and hopefully then go to park etc. PB&J would be a great one to do - one of Kaos's favourites The big thing I think will be not to ever let him get away with not tugging when I want him to, and for me this means small steps in an environment where I know I can get him to tug first, before trying to take it on the road where I know he will expect to get other rewards like food or his squeaky. Eg I would like to be able to have him tug while OH holds and throws his favourite squeaky in the air before I take it on the road. I am also going to try premacking tugging with other favourite activities. So tug at the start of every training session, before walks and eventually before his dinner (am trying to see how I can break that one down into managable DWDH first rather than the whole thing all at once, which I think will end up being too much). And I am liking Michael's suggestion of not to bring the toy out until the dog is paying attention rather than bring the toy out and try to entice a tug. Confidence that the dog will tug is a big point with whether we have success I think.

One thing I'm noticing on the tug DVD - most of the dogs are so forgiving! Even if the handlers are nervous/unsure/not playing with them enthusiastically or just poor handling or the session goes on too long, the dogs will still tug, and all but one that I saw would tug with Michael. If I am not 100% there with Kaos (enthusiastic/into the playing) he will not do it.

I voted loose in the backyard but it depends on time of day and weather. If we are going out in the evening they would be in crates in the house, same if the weather is really bad.

Consider the size of your pup. Then think about someone who may have say a Great Dane. Do you think they are going to carry a Great Dane puppy everywhere? Not having a go, just something to think about.

Thanks CFS That is useful information for all of us who have dogs who sometimes lose focus and enthusiasm. Speed circuits are fun! I now also have a whole bunch of new chase games to work on too.

:) She has a super reliable dog already trained to do everything they need. Awsome

Any type of dog is fine. I don't know which agency or when the ad is, she just called me this afternoon wondering if I knew anybody with a dog that can do it.

Thank you! I have sent the details to my friend.

Good one Dxenion! Bummer you're not in Sydney!

One of the times I find I have problems is when I trial frequently with trials close together, and don't do much training. So this year I plan to do less trials, and when at training keep it really short and work on speed, enthusiasm and focus. Also when I find I start taking things too seriously. So I have backed off more serious stuff, do really short sessions, lots of relationship building exercises, have particularly liked the Recallers ones for this too. The only agility related things I am practicing at home at the moment are one jump exercises and contact position on a travel plank. Everything else is relationship building.

Not sure if it is bottle or can. I can find out though if you like. @ helping himself to a sample!

A friend of mine is looking for a dog for an ad. Any breed. The dog must be able to (or to be easily trained to) open the fridge door, get a beer out of the fridge, and bring the beer to a person. Has anybody here trained their dog to do this and want their dog to star in an ad?

You do realise that SG does use positive punishment? Maybe not a correction collar, but still punishment (something added which decreases the behaviour). Think collar grabs for incorrect/slow responses.

Obviously the water pistol is not effective punishment if he likes it and tries to catch/bite it :laugh: Hope the behaviour assessment goes well - definitely a good idea to seek professional help in this case.

Yes I think the main problem people have is not having it focussed/harnessed correctly and the dog is distracted acting loony lol. ETA: I used to exercise Zoe to get the edge off before class as well as she is dog aggro and I knew nothing about how to utilise drive or how to get good focus then. She is 12 now.

I actually love doing weaves first :laugh: (after a warm up focus session with circle work) - they are a tiring execise for the dog and he will give me quicker and more focused work in the weaves at the start. I keep my sessions very short as well, and am trying to do less sessions per class and work on getting speed and focus rather than length or number of repetitions.

Normally I choose to do my tugging at times of the day I know he is excited and most likely to tug well (in the morning - also cooler then). Today did a tug session in the morning and then decided to see how we would go in the middle of the day when he had been resting in a crate for a while. To see how we would go cold turkey from the crate to tugging. I thought this would be closer to what it would be like at training or a trial. He tugged well came out of the crate, looking at me, and tugged straight away, happily and strong. He is still not all that sure what to make of NEkhbet's advice :laugh: once he grabbed it from the ground but other times still just pinned it in a play bow/pounce position until I reeled it in. Using a soft leather tug which he seems to like to tug on and doesn't seem to want to chew on so much so a winner there too!

Mine is in a crate unless I am working with him. I want his energy and focus on me and playing with/working with me. ETA: while waiting for my turn in class (ie big dogs in agility) I will play a game with him to warm him up and get him ready to work with me. Circle work/hand touches etc. If there is going to be a while before my turn I will crate him again.

Yes I am definitely working on tugging away from agility - keeping it a totally separate exercise. I am using other rewards at agility until we get tugging going. I am happy with the progress we are making - much better now than it was before. Keeping it fun and enjoying it. Yep had take bat and ball and going home moments before :laugh: more careful now with stuff like that. I am really enjoying the Recallers course - lots of fun games to get the dog wanting to play and work with you and some are great for keeping training light and fun (so we don't get too serious!). Had a blast with them this morning and go some good tugging too! Used the udder tug one session and a soft leather tug the next. Certainly super fast dogs would present different challenges. Last year was doing a jumping grid and bar knocking topic came up - Kaos is very good with bars and works to keep them up. I was asked how I trained it - I didn't, that is just how he is, he doesn't like to touch them. People with bar knocking problems looked a bit envious lol.

I want the T Shirt :laugh: So true. Kavik, I understand where you are coming from - I worship at the temple of Susan Garrett too and while I agree with her views and want my dogs to tug for the same reasons as you it is easy to obsess over it at times and lose sight of the big picture. As a generalisation, kelpies do not tug and retrieve as naturally as a lot of BC's do - having now trained both the BC has actually helped me understand my kelpies a lot better in the way that they learn and work. My older kelpie will now happily tug when asked to do so, plus he retrieves and will 'swap' back and forward between food and toys for rewards. However he is nine and it's only been the last 12 months or so that he has done this and through a lot of hard work. In the meantime he has had no trouble working for food rewards at agility and recently completed his ADM3 title. Although that's nothing really special, in a 'career' that's been marked by very long stretches of time off due to injury, he has been relatively successful in the times that he has been able to compete. One thing that helped my with his retrieve was to let him have a 'victory lap' with the toy first. This was the advice of a US trainer that I had a private lesson with a few years back and I have no idea why it works but it does. So I throw the toy, let him run around and do a few laps with it, then recall him. After that he brings it back straight away on subsequent turns. I know this could be considered letting him shape me, but you know what , it works and I am happy to accept it with him. (Wouldn't be happy if the BC did it though, LOL) A couple of other things that helped me were to stop thinking that it was actual tugging behaviour that I wanted, but to want interaction with a toy instead - not the same thing. He has always been happy to pounce on a toy but never liked the actual tugging part. Once I started using the play in agility warm ups the tugging just gradually started to happen. I never ask for a release from either of my kelpies when tugging, just reach down and remove the toy myself and then offer it again so the game can keep moving quickly. Having good training mechanics and quick transitions between repetitions also seems to be very important with kelpies. Both my kelpies are 'hit and miss' with the degree of tugging they are comfortable with at a trial. I try to gauge the situation when I first get them out and choose my rewards from there. Both are always happy to tug after a run, but sometimes not before and although I would prefer they did I can live with it - I have had some fast and focussed runs without a tug in sight at times too. I will also be doing things differently when I choose my next kelpie at some stage but I think I 'get' them a lot more now in regard to agility training than I did before and I certainly haven't lowered my expectations, just adjusted them to a better fit. Good luck and I look forward to hearing how your training goes. ADM3 is a great achievement! sounds like you have done a great job and it does give me hope that we may get there! I am learning a lot with Kaos and even if I end up with similar problems in the next dog with tugging, at least I would have had some practice with Kaos so hopefully can iron them out more quickly. One of the things I have definitely taken away from susan Garrett is that tugging struggles happen with many dogs and even with famous trainers, even she has had moments with her dogs. The important thing is to work through it. And to break distractions down into smaller increments in an area you can control. It certainly makes me feel better when we encounter a hiccup. All the tug instruction DVDs I have watched are based around protection type dogs and I always have to remember that a Kelpie isn't going to work the same way. Sometimes does make Nekhbet's suggestion very tempting though :laugh:

:laugh: A bit more experience probably wouldn't go astray before I jump into that kind of intensity.