Kavik

Is it Aloveen? It is oatmeal based. That is what I use on my guys (except for the one with skin problems). I really like it but my guys have short hair :)

I think it is sort of like breeders terms? Instead of the breeder keeping all of their dogs on their properties, some of the dogs live with other families but are able to be used in the breeder's program. I think?

Maybe that depends on your requirements/what you define as working? Several years ago I instructed obedience ata club that also trained security and personal protection dogs. I often stayed back to watch the protection work after the obedience class, it was fascinating and I learned a lot. There were a LOT of people that showed up with their traditional guarding breeds from a variety of backgrounds, and certainly not all of them had the goods for protection work training. So no I do not think most dogs have the instinct, I have seen first hand that this is not the case. Also, with herding, while I have not done a whole lot with my dog, it was apparent from the first time he saw sheep that he had plenty of instinct, all the instructors commented on him, not surprising as he is WKC bred. I was amazed when I went at the number of dogs which had absolutely no interest in the sheep. I expected that some would be crazy and just want to chase them and maybe not have the desired instinct/control, thinking surely all dogs would want to chase, but I saw some BCs who were more interested in eating sheep poo than in the sheep. Are you implying that only bite work and herding sheep qualify? With the GSD - those (IPO, protection work, police work, herding) would be the relevant working tests yes? And with BCs and Kelpies herding would be yes? I am talking about my experiences with my own types of dogs. Gundogs obviously birdy stuff is the relevant work, if top show dogs are still able to do this then great I didn't mean to sound like gundog work did not qualify, only that people like to assume their dog can do the work because it is a certain breed and certain breeds are supposed to be able to do it. It was most obvious to me with the protection work as people rocked up and really did assume their dog would be able to do it no problem - hey it is a GSD/Rotty/Dobe etc, and they were very surprised at times when their dog was not interested.

Good points Vickie and Weasels I expected most dogs would be pretty excited and crazy at the start with sheep, I did not expect to see indifference.

Maybe that depends on your requirements/what you define as working? Several years ago I instructed obedience ata club that also trained security and personal protection dogs. I often stayed back to watch the protection work after the obedience class, it was fascinating and I learned a lot. There were a LOT of people that showed up with their traditional guarding breeds from a variety of backgrounds, and certainly not all of them had the goods for protection work training. So no I do not think most dogs have the instinct, I have seen first hand that this is not the case. Also, with herding, while I have not done a whole lot with my dog, it was apparent from the first time he saw sheep that he had plenty of instinct, all the instructors commented on him, not surprising as he is WKC bred. I was amazed when I went at the number of dogs which had absolutely no interest in the sheep. I expected that some would be crazy and just want to chase them and maybe not have the desired instinct/control, thinking surely all dogs would want to chase, but I saw some BCs who were more interested in eating sheep poo than in the sheep.

I haven't had that issue Weasels Though I have only done a little herding, the instructors were all impressed with the instinct that Kaos showed (I haven't done enough to polish it or anyhing) and he is certainly fast and keen enough in agility, certainly does not have any jumping style issues or anything like that. I have had a few focus issues with him running out of the ring, but we are working on that, I don't contribute that to being working line.

The show people would first have to show that they wanted the help of the working people, that they were keen to improve their stock, and ask the experienced working people. Because the people putting the hard yards in with working stockdogs are out there working their dogs, running the farm and moving stock. I don't think they have the time or inclination to try to persuade the show fraternity. It is different with GSDs, where the work/sport is not necessarily so time and life consuming as running a farm/stock. With GSDs some of the issue is that the show fraternity is actually helping to block the implementation of proper working tests for the breed. Some people think it is because the show people do not think their dog would be able to do the work, or don't want to do the training involved. They are fighting against legislation and against the show people who do not want to test functionality. The working GSD people are trying to figure out the best way to go about testing and working their dogs, but finding it difficult with the show people and the ANKC and legislation against them.

Hi espinay Sure, I think people who show should most definitely select dogs who retain sound breed function. What do you think would be a good way to motivate them to make functionality a priority?

You know the most frustrating question I was always asked about Zoe? "Didn't you socialise her as a pup?" - I did, from the time I got her home, and I did what I thought was the right thing, but it turned out to be the wrong thing. Lesson learned.

I'm with huski. Zoe is dog aggressive, I certainly never wanted her to be that way and I have done a LOT of work with her. She also doesn't have great nerves. Knowing what I do now, if I had gotten her now as a puppy I would have done a lot of things differently in regards to her socialisation and her general interaction with other dogs - I never would have put her in some of the situations that I did in the past which contributed to her developing dog aggression. Would she have been bombproof? No I don't think so, due to her nerves, but she would be a lot better than she is and I think I could have gotten her to the point where I could have trained and competed with her, she has plenty of drive and loves to work/train even now at 12 1/2 yrs.

Training tires a dog out more than just exercise - exercise alone just makes them really fit :) I also agree with pers - I wouldn't be going to the dog park either in your situation. I do a couple of training sessions throughout the day - which include tugging and other engagement activities, games I learnt in Recallers, shaping, body awareness exercises, retrieve, agility related exercises. The sessions are only short.

I agree you can source a good agility dog from a dog bred for sheepwork- but can you get a BETTER dog for agility from a dog bred for agility? And will that dog be as competitive with a dog bred for sheep work? Or a dog selected for sheep work? I don't know if a dog bred for sheepwork would be better than a dog bred for agility for competing in agility. But I think Telida Whippets raised some concerns regarding the temperament of sports dogs, and certainly within working GSDs and other breeds that do bitework there are also concerns about the temperament of those bred for sport as opposed to those bred for work (in those cases dogs with very high prey drive, but not serious enough for real work). Remembering again as you pointed out altering one thing can also alter others.

I don't know as much about Flyball (the noise is too much for me) but IMO the qualities that make a dog a good sheepdog make a dog a good agility dog (athleticism, functional structure, good drive levels, stable temperament, biddable/ability to take direction) so you can source good agility dogs from those who breed for sheepwork. But breeding for sport such as Flyball will change the dogs.

One of the differences I've noticed is in how the dogs carry themselves. The show dogs carry themselves much more upright and the working dogs carry themselves lower, the BC crouch etc, this lower carriage was also noticeable with the working Springers compared to the show Springers.

Isn't the point to breed your best working dogs? Why would somebody compromise this? Why are you suggesting they should?

Yes, you pick dogs that meet the standard as closely as possible that also display good working instinct to pass on to their progeny. If you choose wisely by using a dog that is prepotent for its working ability there is no reason that the trait would be 'watered down' in all its progeny. You then need to be selective in which puppies you choose to breed on with. Working to achieve a breeding goal is something that is generally achieved in more than one generation of course as any good breeder will know. Given that this thread is a discussion about testing for breed function, perhaps border collie folks such as yourself can tell us? What is a suitable test for border collie breed function that can be utilised by breeders who want to breed dogs that both meet the standard AND have the ability to work at their traditional role? Is the HT a suitable test? We have already discussed how it is possible that tests such as obedience anf agility are perhaps changing what is being selected for in dogs bred for these sports. Rather than be negative and say it cant be done, lets ask the postive question - if a border collie breeder wanted to have it all, how would they test for breed function? I would like to hear your views and the views of other border collie breeders/enthusiasts. But my question is WHY would they want to? When working dogs work better than show dogs? And your livelihood depended on the dogs? Maybe the difference in construction of the working dogs is part of the reason they are better?

espinay - with breeds that have split into working/show lines what do you think would be the point of crossing the lines? Certainly with breeds like Border Collies and GSDs there is a big difference in appearance. To cross the working lines with the show lines you end up with what? A dog that can't work as well as a pure working line dog and a dog which is not suited to the show ring. For someone breeding eg Border Collies for station work, why would there be a need to have a dog that looks like a show bred Border? Where would the incentive be for someone breeding for sheepwork to have a dog that looks like that? When the working line dogs do the job well, and that is what matters for someone who is actually working their dogs, why would they risk the quality of their dogs by bringing in dogs which can't work as well just because some show judge decided they looked nicer?

The smooth faces in the fourth picture are gorgeous!

Yep get the ball on your side and get him to work for the ball.

You can teach him control with the ball, and then you have a super reward too :) So he is keen on the ball, does he know sit? Get him to sit before you throw the ball, wait out any inappropriate responses.

It is about building value for you and your rewards - they will not automatically be more interesting than new dogs and smells, you have to work at it :) There are lots of ways you can do this. When I have more time I will write some suggestions. And don't let him off lead in the dog park if his recall is still bad.

Bugger about the hips Importing and establishing a new breed is difficult.

I think the first Australian litter of Pyr Sheps are being bred this year, right? Really? Do you know who is breeding them? That is very exciting!

Add the Pyrenean Shepherd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenean_Shepherd and the Markiesje http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markiesje to the list :laugh:

I would look at CFS advice too - might be a judging takeoff issue and some of her suggestions may help.