Kavik

:laugh: I knew the +R but I can't think what NRM is referring to NRM = Non Reward Marker. Something unemotional like "Oops" which lets the dog know that it was not the action we were looking for and to try again. You ideally want the dog to remain upbeat, not to see it as a punisher. The only time I've really used a NRM was for weave pole training when working on entries, as I didn't want him to continue weaving if he chose the incorrect entry.

Withholding reward applies pressure to the dog and when the dog blows over composure threshold, the dog is in a stressful state. So that falls on the opposite end of the frustration spectrum than shutting down. (In other words, the dog stresses high instead of stressing low. Most of my dogs stress low, but Nitro the pup stresses high, and will be a different challenge for me!)

I find that I am using an actual clicker less and less often, now either use a marker word or no markers at all, but using reward placement etc.

It really shouldn't be aversive, though. I'd feel like I'd failed to explain what I wanted, or asked too much, if a dog I was training actually got stressed about a reward being withheld, or didn't use a NRM as an opportunity to try something different. Do you really think there is no stress at all involved with removal of a reward? Sorry, but I just can't buy it and science doesn't either. We know removing a high value reward is stressful to a dog. It's stressful to people too. IMO there is stress in all learning and I don't think that's a bad thing. If removing a reward or giving a NRM created no stress in the dog at all it wouldn't be effective. I agree totally. I mentioned previously in the discussion that my working line GSD has bitten me twice from withholding reward and the dog was stressed and getting angry and decided to help himself. Because someone hasn't experienced a dog of that intensity and the stress isn't as obvious, doesn't mean it's non existent........on more extreme dogs these cracks IME are greater highlighted to see the effects more vividly. With my dog withholding a bite reward, the first stage is intense calm focus.....then the body trembling the anticipation......then high pitched yipping, feet bouncing.....then the bark deepens then he will fight you for it with aggression. As his handler/owner I don't want to take it the past the yipping in fact I reward the calm focus, but you can see the stress building in full drive and arousal to point of overload and he could nail me for that reward. The after effect of that is submission, he knows he went too far, the ears are flat on his head and he sooks and licks me......to say that reward withholding is not stressful for the dog......I have never seen my dog as stressed as that scenario when taken too far. Wouldn't the dog biting you because you withheld the reward fall under the category of lack of impulse control? Or frustration? I agree that withholding rewards can be stressful, you can see it in shaping if the dog shuts down, leaves work, or barks, they have to learn to work through frustration.

Also, all dogs get distracted, we have to teach them how to pay attention in the face of distractions. My current pup was distracted by a plastic bag blowing in the wind the other week :laugh: . The top trainers have a program to work through distractions.

Put a cue on it when you love the behaviour :)

I don't think it is a good idea to leave anything on a dog unattended that goes around its muzzle.

Some Koolies are very finely built, she looks Koolie to me :) I don't know a lot about Koolies, I've always admired them from afar, they seem like lovely dogs! Any handy hints, Kavik? :p We're much more active already! Hahaha. Being working dogs like Kelpies, they are active and smart, and very trainable. You will have lots of fun :) I like trick training to keep them busy, and also a lot of tricks are actually very useful for agility as well.

Some Koolies are very finely built, she looks Koolie to me :)

Koolie :)

Nitro was fine with the anaesthetic. Not sure how long the surgery was, I left him at the vet in the morning and picked him up in the evening. It didn't seem to bother him any, he was back to his bouncy self quickly. Hope the vets didn't have their hands too full with him when trying to get him under :laugh:

I had Nitro's retained baby canines taken out just last week! He is 7 months old, they were in there pretty good and weren't coming out on their own.

I'm watching this thread with interest. I also used to board my dogs with PAX, and she was great! Now that she is no longer boarding I need to find a good kennel, I have to go to the USA next year for about a week.

I'm glad you got Nelly! I was wondering which group got her! I wish I could take her :laugh: If you think she would be good for sports I will pass the word around. A small Kelpie with good drive would be very popular for sports!

Thanks Vickie!

Thank you Vickie that is really good information. I think I need to attend workshops or lessons on how to do turns :laugh: Anyone have a good video on what handling for a good turn looks like? I think I do both of those things, no wonder the poor dog gets confused :laugh:

There was rabbit agility held one time when we had a dog agility trial :laugh: Just a different oval of the grounds.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who finds it difficult!

Kaos also tends to be "careful".

Any suggestions of things I can set up at home with jumps and a tunnel that might help? What makes it tricky is sometimes Kaos is in a fast running mode where he just goes! and I have to work hard to turn him and call him off obstacles, other times he pays more attention to me and is not as fast but those are the times when he pulls off obstacles easily.

Try thinking of this issue in terms of commitment. If he is pulling off the jump, you are cuing the turn before he has committed to it. If he is making the turn slowly, you are hanging around for too long after he has committed. I think too often we get caught up in what a system says we should do or the latest trend in training at the expense of reading our individual dogs. I see a lot of people stopping short on turns lately as that is what they are seeing the big names do. It's only really appropriate if your dog is driving forward like their dogs are. The problem is that the more people try to copy this with dogs who are not driving forward, the more they are encouraging those dogs not to drive forward. Yes you are right about commitment :) I need to get better with my timing of signals and my own speed/pace.

Here is some of our latest training - working on our retrieve.

Thanks TSD! I wasn't sure when to add the verbal.

Hi MRB! I didn't do the running contacts section, but I plan to teach check check as being do a tight turn around the next jump and come back towards me. So not something I would use for coming off the dogwalk straight into the tunnel, as it means to take the next obstacle tightly, not tight turn off the dogwalk. (I have a stopped dogwalk). I will report back in after another couple of sessions and when I add a verbal cue. I only have non winged jumps at home, hopefully that will still work OK. I guess this confusion is what happens when you don't train it properly the first time (as he is my first competing dog) :laugh:

Yeah I plan to add a 'check check' cue. I have used the pool noodle upright a bit.