Kavik

I've heard feeding them bread helps? gives padding or something. Mine have gotten the odd cooked bone (from walks in the park - mine are gutses!)

People seem to be using the term 'force retrieve' for a few different ways of teaching retrieve here. Those using these methods please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of the force retrieve is that it uses negative reinforcement - you use ear pinch/tight collar/ecollar and when the dog opens its mouth to accept dumbell you release the pressure. etc.

Where are you located? Kaos, my Kelpie, exhibited some of these behaviours (doesn't tolerate dominant dogs, barked at people who didn't give him attention, lunged at cars and bikes) when he was about 9 months. I went to see K9 Force, a behaviourist on this list, and after a session where we dealt with leadership and confident handling most of these have stopped. I still have to watch him around dominant/reactive dogs but he is getting better.

The course is both theory and prac, you need prior experience to do it though, I did their trainer course first. You can take your dog. There are guest speakers including Steve Austin. http://www.ndtf.net.au/new/index.html

There is a tracking club in NSW - give that a go! I've done a very little bit - lots of fun. NDTF do a scent detection course if you are interested in that. Done that too - that was fun! What about agility? GSPs enjoy that too. Do you have any pics? I like GSPs :cool:

Very true :cool:

I also have issues with the retrieve. Diesel will happily take the dumbell from my hand, will reach for it, take it from ground and carry it around, come to me and sit with dumbell. But if I throw it he is very slow to go and get it. Often stops when he gets to it, sniffs a bit then picks it up. But will quickly and happily return with it once he picks it up. Sometimes he will chase a ball (is doing it more regularly now). We have also used the clicker method.

People are actually giving you constructive advice . . . and this is how you respond. Not sure what else you actually want?

The thing I find the most difficult is the changing between mental gears for each dog (good way of putting it Dogs4Fun ), especially between the Kelpies and the GSD, as they work so differently. Between Kelpies not too bad, they work similarly, though different ages and slight difference in temperament. But the GSD is TOTALLY different! And if I take them both to obedience, I have problems changing gears to get it right.

Ok I was going to ask this before but you have answered it for me - how you were going to train protection with just one person (you). You need at least two people to train this - you can't do it all on your own! You are going to teach your dog to bite you? The way you are training is VERY dangerous . . . I would NOT want to teach a dog to let go of the sleeve by putting my fingers anywhere near its mouth . . .

Like myszka I am curious as to what breed you have - I admit to being a stickybeak! Not all dogs, even from 'guarding' breeds, have the right temperament to do bitework, take my Diesel as an example To actually answer your question, my friends who train security are always asking me if I can bring back some gear when I visit the USA though there may now be places in Aus.

There is a lot of advice given on the training forum for free, including oin this thread. However, helping someone who is having difficulty getting their dog to drop is a little different to bitework . . . even with obedience problems, having someone actually observe the dog is invaluable. I don't understand why some people are against professional advice? It is not a weakness to ask for help or seek advice. I have been to K9 Force with my dogs. If you have little understanding of an aspect of training, especially one that is potentially dangerous, it is foolish to do it with no help. My opinion is that really the only part you can do without help is to start building drive. You really need a helper for the rest and professional evaluation of your dog's temperament,understanding of temperrament and drives, and know whether you have the right temperament for the training.

If you are holding both objects in your hand, then both objects have your scent on them. If you are trying to get the dog to target your scent, this would be confusing if you are rewarding for targetting one but not the other. I would suggest de-scenting the one you don't want the dog to target, and not to touch it at all, I would place them on the ground, on a box, or mat and use tongs to move the non scented article. First I would go back to one article only and build up your target there so you are sure the dog knows what to target.

It sounds like you might be confusing your dog. If you hold both objects in your hand they will both have your scent on them, so I am confused too. Are you teaching scent descrimination for obedience? Or scent detection? I am assuming scent descrimination from your description. If so, you want one with your scent and any other objects you use to have no scent on them. I haven't taught this exercise for obedience before, but I would start with one object with your scent on it, and put it on the ground. Then proceed with c/t. The method I have read about the most includes the retrieve early on. Regardless, I wouldn't introduce another object until your dog alerts or retrieves the first one really well. Any other one you introduce needs to have no scent - that means you don't touch it with your hands, you have to de-scent it and use tongs or something else to place it. If they both have your scent on it, you will confuse the dog.

I have seen the results of the training from a certain well known establishment who widely advertise their training of protection dogs - and the result is not pretty for the dogs :rolleyes: I'm with Erny - PLLEASE get professional guidance if you decide to do any sort of bitework with your dog. I can verify that a visit to K9 Force is well worth it, and also that the schutzhund people are very nice and approachable.

Here are a couple of methods (there are others) 1) Using a clicker or other marker. Hold treat away from your face but level with face. When your dog looks away from the treat to you, click and treat. When the dog is doing it reliably, add command. Then try using command without showing the food first. I also click and treat any time the dog looks at me. When I see dogs, I put my dog in a sit, and get my dog to look at me. 2) Spit food :rolleyes: Seriously, for eye contact this works! You may find it gross though! I started with the food in my mouth (I use cheese) sitting/kneeling down, and have the dog take the food from my mouth. Then progress slowly (sit to kneel etc) til you are standing. By this stage you will need to spit/drop the food and have your dog catch it. This takes time and practice! But even my dopey GSD figured it out. Works best if you don't let them get the bits they dropped.

Have you tried keeping his attention on you? Work on getting his attention on command at home (look or watch are common commands) then use that when you pass other dogs. Treats may come in handy :rolleyes: There are several methods for teaching attention, I can tell you some if you are interested.

My old girl Belle who was only 16 inches and 11 kg could scale our 6 ft fence at my parents Our fault - was only a small fence when we got her, didn't expect her to get over, and when she did we raised it by increments so she learned to get over. What fixed it was a total overhaul of the fence and moving the flower beds she used as a head start, and age, she was 15 by the time she could no longer get out Luckily none of my others have been interested in getting out. Kaos can certainly jump high Not only can he jump up and give you kisses if you are standing up, my parents have a sliding glass door for the back, and when he jumps he gets nearly to the top! Good thing he doesn't try to jump fences . . . though mine are now 6ft colourbond, so not likely he could get over that :D

Do you have a box clicker or an i-click? The i-click is softer. You could try a clicking pen lid.

Everything she said Adding Building Drive Focus and Grip DVD :cool:

Seriously DO NOT attempt any sort of protection work if you don't know what you are doing! You will get hurt or create an unpredictable, aggressive dog or a fearful mess. You need to know much more than you can get out of books for this!

Sorry, the ABC and D thing must be NSW only.

Maybe Steve Austin? He does lots of scent detection stuff.

I don't know the whole deal, but this is what I have gathered. I assume you are doing the ABC course? There is then the D dog handling course. Not sure what that involves (I have done the ABC course). I have sat in on a security dog handling course, but that was a while ago, not sure if it is the same now as they have changed the system. The people I instructed with ran the course on their property, you could use your dog but if you didn't have one you could use one of theirs. Some security companies have dogs that handlers can use, some I think you use your own, I'm not totally sure on the protocol there. I think you keep the dog on your property?

I have a good idea LOL Think of the importance of things to the dog - why does it do something? Does it enjoy doing it or is there something else in it for the dog? Think of a dog chasing birds vs obedience work Does that make sense? Edit for clarity