Kavik

I certainly want to come Love watching the SchH 3 people strut their stuff

Yes Jules, that is the step I mean. But how does the dog know the poles changed not the reinforcement line? I guess I am thinking of it as where do I want the dog to go and where do I put my reinforcer? Straight ahead of me, behind me, reward at me , reward at dog? Reward straight through poles or reward at angle through poles? You seem to be looking at it as poles relating to the reinforcement line, and I am looking at it as reinforcement line in relation to poles The dog only has the 2 poles as reference points as to what it is supposed to do and where to go. If you have been reinforcing for going straight through the poles, how is the dog to know you no longer want this but you want the dog to angle through the poles? The dog can't see your imaginary reinforcement line.

Sort of like the channel being open at the start if using that method? Is the aim to train always going the same way (throw reward the same way) but move the poles? I just noticed when I gave it a little go with Zoe (poor Zoe, my guinea pig but I can't trial her so might as well try new stuff! That was before trying 3 poles) that they assume they are going straight through the poles and look for the reward, what I don't get is how do they then realise to start going in a different direction, that the reward will no longer come from going straight through the poles but going angled through them? Maybe I am just slow but I don't understand how you are supposed to get that shift.

I am looking at the PDF now, and the first step has two poles with reward line going straight through the middle of them, not the direction the dog would be going if weaving. The third step has the reward line at a different angle than the first step, more in line with what the dog would do if weaving. That is what I don't understand. Unless I am reading the diagrams wrong, but that's what it looks like to me Good thing I am not using this method right now, would have buggered it up

I have read the PDF but not seen the DVD and from the diagrams on there when you first start with 2 poles the reinforcement line is straight through the middle of the poles, but then you change so that it is at an angle later? Or maybe I just understood it wrong

I am hoping to come watch - I'll cheer you on if you compete

I thought all BCs and Kelpies were heading dogs? I'm not sure that the sticky eye and the agility problem is related? Could be that they are more comfortable close to you if you have tended to reward close and not away from you, if you have done lots of obedience work? Don't know that much about sticky eye in herding except that it's not desirable sorry can't help you there. The little I have done with Kaos he does not have this problem, he is showing good inclination to head where necessary, but does not stick.

With Zoe, the club I went to used guides and you lured them through (poles were in straight normal alignment). I found that Zoe, who was normally a fast dog, was slow and unsure and we never developed an independent weave with her. I would not personally use that method again. With Kaos I have used a combination of the channel method and a 3 pole shaped entry, and he is now weaving in competition despite not much practice outside of the backyard I have been retraining Zoe (who is 9 now and never will compete, just for fun to see if I can) with a 3 pole shaped entry and slanted poles. I haven't given the 2 x 2 method a go, but shaping the entry is probably the most helpful thing I was shown :rolleyes: by Vickie. I am interested in the 2 x 2 method, looks like an interesting way to train the weaves, only thing I am confused about is changing the reinforcement line from straight at the beginning to angled later on, wonder if that would confuse the dog. Haven't seen the DVD yet, probably explained in there.

Yes, but it is the closest thing available and would still give an indication of whether the dog would chase. I am for testing of ability, but also for REALISTIC testing given that some jobs are illegal. I have said that I also think there are things that even the fighting breeds could use to test gameness, that do not include fighting. Things like weight pull and springpole competitions. Surely some testing of ability is better than none?

Any suggestions on how I do this with my Afghan Hound? It is not possible for all breeds to be able to demonstrate what they were originally bred to do. The best we can do is try to get as close to the written standard as possible. Perhaps you have a better suggestion? Bear. What about Lure Coursing? tkay, I like your suggestion

When I first started shaping with Zoe I got the whole repertoire of tricks too I just ignore anything given that is not what I want. Also only work on one thing during a session. I do find it easier when working with props as this does help to cue the dog as to what type of behaviour you want. I find the beginning bit of the free shaping process very frustrating, but worth it once it clicks in the dog's head what you want, as they are very enthusiastic about it and it does stay in their heads well.

I understand that it takes a lot of time to train a dog in any discipline. But I also think breeders owe it to the breed to ensure that they can do what they were bred for (if they had a job), not just look like that breed. Obviously within reason - not dog fighting etc. But certainly breeds which are still used for work. What exactly this should entail is where it becomes complicated. For the controversial GSD Schutzhund, while ideal, is a very difficult discipline, and many would not be interested in the "C" part of the sport, and it is very time consuming. But there should be SOMETHING which can assess the dog's drives, nerves and temperament. Plus some people think that Schutzhund has become watered down to allow the show people to get the required titles on their dogs for breeding.

But Jules, do you really think someone who breeds working dogs for ability would actually breed a dog that is that badly built? Good working dog breeders actually work their dogs in their field, most who I know have active sheep stations and their dogs are proper working dogs on the stations. A dog which is badly built physically is not going to be able to keep up and will not work for very long, thus will not be bred from. Some things in the conformation ring ARE about appearance. Specific markings or ear sets which will not impact on its working ability.

The WKC has a guarantee on their registered pups that they will replace or refund the cost of a pup if it does not work by 12 months or has a physical problem which prevents it working as long as the dog was given opportunity and training and exposure to livestock. So they must be pretty confident in their dogs ability.

Fair enough - it must be tough having the most popular obedience and agility breed. I personally like to see how the individual dog is working and responding, and certainly have great respect for those I see with great dogs in their sport, regardless of breed (even if it IS a Border Collie )

I am finding that foundation work is very important Certainly putting in the hard work at the beginning pays off later on. However, you certainly have a better chance of doing well if your breed is more suitable for the activity you would like to do, and if you choose a breeder and individual within the litter which have the attributes that you require.

Of course some dogs are better for some things than others, that's the point of having different breeds right?

I think demand depends on breed/job/area. Breeds like Kelpies and Border Collies are still used in their original work, so the demand is there for a good working dog. This can be seen in the high prices that come from the Casterton Kelpie auctions. German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois etc are in demand for police, security, military, sports, scent work etc so the demand is also there for a good working dog. High price tags also come with some of these dogs. Not sure about the other breeds, these are the ones I see and have experience with.

Must convince OH to take more videos - can show you Kaos's 12 weaves and Zoe's 3 pole weave entry

Make yourself fun For some reason I find I act differently around my different dogs and I think this is what has caused the problems I have had with Diesel - I was getting too serious and not being fun enough. I am now being more fun when I play with the toy and he is becoming more enthusiastic He will still never be as quick as the others in general, but I am happy to have him happy when working. I am also using oppositional reflex and finding it lots of fun - restraining and then seeing who can make it to the toy/treat bag the fastest!

I'm not doing 2 x 2 with Kaos (I taught a 3 pole entry by shaping it) but just some ideas on weaves in general. I found short training sessions to be best. I would get a few really good ones but if I went for too long he would make more mistakes. So I went to do 2 on each side only, different entries. The hardest thing for me when shaping new behaviours is to not add a cue I am getting better at it. I found the first few sessions where he was figuring out what I wanted him to do very frustrating, but once it clicked in his head progress was fast. I have started a 3 pole entry with Zoe now too just to see if we can do it (who is 9 years old and I never had decent weaves on her) and she took longer to get it but is now starting to understand what to do.

Basically agility is directing your dog through a number of obstacles. Fast paced and lots of fun! There are many different types of obstacles including jumps of varying styles, tunnels, ramps, seesaws, weaving poles and others. The course is numbered (apart from games) so being able to turn and direct your dog along the correct path is important. For safety reasons on some obstacles there is a contact zone - a coloured area down the bottom of the obtacle that has to be touched by the dog on the way up and down. So correct and safe negotiation of the obstacles is important too. Many breeds compete in agility, the more popular ones are athletic and light to moderately built, energetic, eager for toys and/or food, biddable and enjoy working with their handler. ETA: Here is a video. OK a bit of breed bias but I thought I'd get in before all the BC people

I'm a maybe depends on cost. Still trying to decide on whether to really hassle OH for a working spot in an agility seminar and have to take into account if I want to do other seminars this year.

I'll also add: Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog by Emma Parsons (Good focus exercises to help deal with reactive dogs, has helped me be calmer as well when handling my dog aggro dog) Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hilliard (OK I'm not doing Schutzhund atm but has some good tips for the obedience part and tracking as well)

OK I am now getting right into agility so have found some good reference material for there :D Debates aside about the varying handling systems, I have found Susan Garrett's Success with One Jump DVD to be very helpful. Sort of like 101 things to do with 1 (or sometimes 0) jumps including great obstacle focus ideas, and talks about building value for obstacles.