Kavik

What I found fascinating about the Susan Garrett seminar was exactly how she approached teaching boundaries and consequences for actions without the use of corrections. She teaches self control in the face of distractions and temptations as well as teaching the dogs to bounce back from failure in a training exercise and how to try again to give the correct response without shutting down. She emphasises giving the dog the choice to make the right or the wrong decision and each one has consequences. She has high drive dogs, and Decaf was a challenge in other ways as well. What are the consequences of making a wrong decision in the Susan Garrett system???. SG prefers to start the teaching of consequences and self control outside her main training area of agility. She does this with her program of Crate Games and It's Yer Choice. The dog has the choice of eg in Crate Games to stay sitting when the door is opened and so earn its release and reward and opportunity to work and earn more rewards or to try and barge through the door and get the consequence of the door being shut and so not earn its release and reward and miss the opportunity to work and earn more rewards. She teaches the dog to want to make the right choice and a lot of her training involves the control of resources. They have to earn priveleges from showing that they can make smart correct choices. With a more difficult behavioural problem I believe she would approach the problem as a symptom of a wider problem to do with relationship, understanding and choice rather than the problem being an end in itself to fix. So she would go back to her foundation work program and go from there.

In addition to my last comment. I obviously think the SG program for teaching self control and consequences is a great idea, and very useful in a performance dog as well as a pet. It does require dedication, time, patience and a good understanding of dog training principles and much of it is done as foundation work exercises and some requires the control of the environment and use of the crate. I think it is a great program to promote to owners who wish to take things further with their dogs and to start them with a good foundation for further training and who wish to train without the use of corrections. For those seeking help with serious behavioural problems, possibly because they haven't set the groundwork/done good foundation work for the relationship with their dog, they are likely not to have the time, patience or skills necessary to successfully utilise a program such as the one SG promotes. They often require results quickly, and sometimes the behaviour the dog displays is dangerous and if not fixed could lead to damage or the dog being PTS. This is where I think you need to be open in your approach to a problem. ETA: for the example given of the dog coming up leash. I don't think any good positive trainer would attempt to fix such a dog straight away like that in front of an audience. That is very confrontational training, and more likely a positive trainer would go back to basics and teaching respect of handler/self control in a manner and environment that is not as confrontational and where the dog is not going to be able to try to physically take on the handler. I actually think something like crate games or TOT would work quite well as a starting point for this. I don't think such a trainer would ever get such a problem in their own dog as they would have done good foundation work to produce a good relationship in the first place.

What I found fascinating about the Susan Garrett seminar was exactly how she approached teaching boundaries and consequences for actions without the use of corrections. She teaches self control in the face of distractions and temptations as well as teaching the dogs to bounce back from failure in a training exercise and how to try again to give the correct response without shutting down. She emphasises giving the dog the choice to make the right or the wrong decision and each one has consequences. She has high drive dogs, and Decaf was a challenge in other ways as well.

Corvus, Seeing it is a course through a well known trainer/organisation, and charging fees that are as much or more than other dog trainer courses that are accredited, I don't see why it should be immune to the same kind of discussion that the Delta/NDTF threads generate in terms of skills learnt, theory, use or prohibition of corrections in training etc.

I don't know as much about Karen Pryor's methods as I do Susan Garrett's. SG also does not use corrections, but I know she has a whole program designed to teach self control and focus and she is very strict on how she interacts with her dogs which is how she can get it to work. She also doesn't profess to be able to fix behavioural problems. I don't know if Karen Pryor has any similar methods in place. Looking at the curriculum it does look more like training rather than behavioural stuff, and for fixing behavioural problems I think it is best to have an open mind and several tools in your toolbox.

I don't think Labs are particularly 'easy'. I have seen many while working with dogs that are quite a challenge, very physically strong, pushy, mouthy, noisy and bossy with other dogs and personally I find Kelpies easier! I think the most suitable dog would depend on a number of factors

As others have said, Labs aren't guard dogs. If you want a dog that will guard, I would look at a different breed People do seem to be more intimidated by black dogs though (colour and appearance) and most dogs will bark or can be taught to bark on command.

Lots of shaping exercises , dumbell work, perch work, rear end awareness, end contact behaviour and other things you can do under cover in a small area. They get out for walks as long as it is not pouring, though I was on my own with the toddler yesterday and the rain didn't really let up so no walks as wet dog + me I can do but wet dogs + me + wet toddler not so much Normally OH gets home in time for me to do a walk on my own.

My OH doesn't mind if they are in or out, though he prefers not to be mobbed by them when he is on the computer They are not allowed on the bed though.

Like with trainers, breeders and vets, it pays to do your research with behaviourists Word of mouth, learning as much as you can about them, their methods, their experience, their background, whether you think it will work for you and your dog

Same thing in most cases, the distinction is that it is implied that people would refer them to someone who has proven to be able to work with behaviour problems (as opposed to being able to train the dog to come when called, sit, drop etc) I agree with Aidan on this. Much like the discussion on Susan Garett that railroaded the Crate Games thread. You want to learn about the training methodology and techniques and precision and how to break the exercises down to get a world class performance - go to a trainer in that area that is at world class level. You want someone who can fix ingrained behavioural problems, go to a behaviourist who is experienced with dealing with problem behaviours. You need medication prescribed - go to a vet or vet behaviourist.

More will be added - the clubs probably just haven't all decided on dates yet

The only problem I am having with ADAA is their titling system. Because you can enter so many events, I have accumulated a number of quallies in different level events but not enough for a title in any of them. They also don't have separate Jumping and Agility titles - it is combined with you needing a certain number of them to be agility quallies.

Yeah Kaos is my competing dog I'll watch the DVD again and then decide - it is a pretty involved program! I normally use a wire crate for him (easier to move to training and trials), though I guess he'd fit in Zoe's crate which is an airline plastic type, so I could use that I guess for the crate games training . . .

I say this with respect and compassion for the owner Huski, but this is a typical example of dog gone out of control with too much drive for conventional motivational training. There is clearly a point in the dog's development where this type of dog must be switched to include aversive based training to set boundaries, consequences and redirect drive. In the hands of an experienced K9 trainer this dog's behaviour would not have escalated into killing cats and needing to be rehomed. As a gesture Huski, next time you argue aversion versus motivational training, think about this scenario and remember the mess that occurred training a dog in the wrong methods unsuitable for it's type. :D If you had hung around here for a while and gotten to know huski you would know that you are 'barking up the wrong tree' with that comment as she is not against the use of aversive (did you know she is a student of K9Pro? She does TID with her Beagle.). Neither am I by the way Hope the outcome is good for this fella. I agree with those who suggested some type of scent detection role.

OK a question about Crate Games I haven't done Crate Games with Kaos. Is it worth teaching him this at 4 1/2 yrs and already having an association with the crate, or would I be best off waiting for the next pup to try it out on instead?

Susan Garrett does not profess to be a behaviourist or someone who deals with behavioural problems, but a trainer who specialises in competition agility (and who enjoys obedience too). As she does not try to rehabilitate dogs, I'm not sure where you get a ratio of 'success' and 'failure' She is not about fixing aggression or anything like that. You are not allowed correction collars at her camps, but you are not allowed correction collars at any agility clubs either. They are not necessary to train in the sport, and in competition in some codes you have to run them without any collar at all for safety. One of the messages that came out loud and clear in her seminar is not to give up on your dog. Her descriptions of both Buzz and Decaf were enlightening - while I had known a bit about Buzz I didn''t realise the work that went into Decaf. She does choose to train without corrections, and the work she puts into her dogs to get this to be successful is to be commended, but if she was vehemently against any trainer that did use them, she would have an issue with Schutzhund people and she said she gets lots of them coming to her seminars in Canada.

I wouldn't use 50cm spaced weaves - I got a channel set with that spacing unknowingly when I first started training weaves - 5 cm makes a big difference as weaving does involve muscle memory!. If you are doing ADAA I would suggest doing 55cm weaves. There are people who make them with 55 or 60cm spaced weaves here, I would do that instead, and some will make 2x2 specifically if you ask them to.

Wow great start on the seesaw!

ADAA events are confusing The lowest levels are Elementary and Starters (in both Jumping and Agility). You can enter these at the same time, in the same trial. Starters has weaves, Elementary doesn't, Elementary is supposed to be simpler course design. To make things more confusing if you have no titles you can enter both of those plus Intermediate (next level up) and Open as well if you want ;) When you get a title you can't do the lowest level anymore but can do a higher level etc. There are always several classes you can do at once.

One very important things I learned at the Susan Garrett seminar was how she manages to train her dogs without the use of corrections. She is very disciplined in her interactions with her dogs - not just when training but all the time (she stresses the importance of what the dog does and how it acts the other 23 hrs of the day you are not training). She teaches self control exercises through Crate Games and It's Yer Choice from when they are puppies as well as drive building exercises, and the use of choice and making the dog think is paramount in her philosophy to training. I don't think everybody would be able to be as disciplined and consistent in their interactions with their dogs as she is, it is hard to remember all the time She certainly let the students know when and where they have been slack with their training As she says positive is NOT permissive! I have a LOT of respect for her and it was amazing to watch the best in the world and hear how they train. Not all trainers who don't like to use corrections or who don't like prong collars or who like haltis are the same, they all have different levels of expertise and handling experience. I'm not sure Susan Garrett would behave in the manner of the person you described 55chevy. She also does specialise in agility and does some obedience, but she says she gets Schutzhund people coming to her seminars too. She would not likely have one of her own dogs act like that Mal x Dutchie and come uplead because if it was her dog she would have done her foundation work exercises and the dog would have learnt self control and what would get it satisfaction (which would not be growling or coming uplead!) from a young age. ETA: She was also inspirational in that she says not to put limits on your dog because eg it is from a shelter or has fear issues or confidence issues. From her accounts her dog Decaf had quite a few temperament related issues she had to work through and Decaf is an amazing world winning agility dog!

As many people here have trained more sophisticated behaviours using shaping than the basic obedience you claim, I agree that starting a thread saying you will answer all questions on clicker training does seem rather arrogant Discussions on clicker training are well received though

With Kaos it was just time. He was crated as a pup in the car, when we first tried the harness he freaked out and tangled himself in the seatbelt. I then got a separate attachment that didn't have as much 'give' as a seatbelt and tied knots in it to make it shorter. When bubs came, the crate didn't fit in the car with the carseat and we had to use the harness. It didn't take too long for him to get used to the harness after that. We do lots of travel to training and trials, and he now relaxes and lies down on the seat. He does get excited and bark a little when he knows we are getting close to our destination but that doesn't bother me. For the most part he is happy to chill

As foxes are a pest species in Australia, you are not allowed to keep them as pets and you would certainly not be able to import them. There was a thread a little while ago where someone found some baby foxes and was deciding what to do with them.

The agility trial started at 4pm on Saturday and the GSDs were still being judged then I didn't realise we were sharing the grounds with the GSDs until I showed up for the trial