Whirligig

That's why I'm enjoying this site so much. Just seeing what works for others and what I can take on board for myself as I gain more confidence with my dog training. Meanwhile I think it wisest to stick with the basic training methods I'm currently learning because it's the first time I've found something that's worked well for me. As my dog and I progress up the ranks in the training sphere, I'm sure some of what I've absorbed from this site will seep into my future training attempts. No doubt I'll be using some of these methods if/when we progress onto agility or tracking training.

Hi Santl66 If you've observed, or know about the Alpha training method, you should know that the dogs do end up walking off lead very successfully, and do so without a problem under extremely distracting conditions. As I've said all along, there are many ways to achieve the same result. As long as the training is conducted in a humane and ethical manner, whatever method suits the owner is going to work best, and will create the best trust and bond between owner and dog. So why the halti then..........if the training is adequate in focus and reward and the dog is easily adaptable to that type of training the same can be achieved without a leash and collar at all? Training results also depends on the individual dog's inherited traits.....one of mine is sensational in focus and off leash obedience in distractions, the other same breed, is still work in progess and twice the better dog's age with double the amount of work and is still not as good and reliable at 6 years old as as my better dog was at 12 months old. The better dog was trained on a flat collar, the more difficult dog works better on a prong collar, horses for courses I guess? I am a firm believer from my two dogs alone, that a training method although it's essential for the owner to be satisfied and confident applying the methods, it depends on the individual dog what works best and a good trainer IMHO is one who can determine what method to use for the best results by reading the dog correctly......some trainers are very good at that, some are useless and some use a one method fits all approach? One of mine as I mentioned same breed different lines though, lacks drive, is easily distracted the other is the opposite. The dog with the lower drive responds best to correction based methods, he doesn't have the drive my other dog has to become excited over toy reward above all else so the training methods vary between the dogs. The driven dog won't accept a prong collar correction as aversion elevates aggression and he could bite me where my other immediately submits and behaves.........so employing the opposite methods on each of my dogs which I have tried results in a lack of responsivness all round when the wrong method is used for the dog type. Yes, I certainly agree that sometimes trainers would need to adapt their training methods to suit the dog's personality. And it all depends on what you are training the dog to do, what your purpose is for the dog. However, I also believe that most dogs will respond to praise and consistent guidance without using harsh or painful methods. There is absolutely no way on earth I would have attempted training my dog from the outset without a collar or halti, to teach him to listen and respond to me. His prime focus then was anything that had feathers or fur, and he hadn't been taught anything. At that time, if he had his mind on a bird or rabbit, or kangaroo, he would not have responded to recall, and I would have lost him. In my earlier postings I mentioned that when I acquired him it was impossible to walk him without the risk of putting my back out. Even with the halti that was recommended by the first professional trainer I had out to my house, he'd take off and leap into the air after birds. He actually did summersaults in the air in his attempts to get at the birds. It was horrific walking him! There is no way he would have stayed safe without a lead of some sort. Within a couple of lessons at Alpha I was walking him reasonably well with the halti (now he walks beautifully with it). Once, when I went to the country for 4 weeks I accidentally left his halti behind, and discovered that I was able to walk him quite well with the flat collar and voice control- not perfect, but well enough to get out walking with him. But I know that had I not had him on a lead he would have taken off after the kangaroos, never to be seen again. He hadn't been taught to respond to any sort of recall. Eventually he will, or rather he and I will learn to control his behaviour, but I can't take that chance right now. He will eventually walk off lead under distraction,, and he will learn to obey my recall under distraction. He has a delightful demeanour, but a fairly dominant nature, but he respects me and we have a good bond which is essential for training. At this stage my ultimate goal is to do either tracking or agility with him, but there's still plenty of groundwork to be covered. I personally would never use a prong collar to train my dogs, especially not the dog I have at the moment. I was afraid of injuring my dog with a slip chain - I failed at that method. So there's no chance I'll use a prong collar. Perhaps I'm too soft, but it's not a method that sits well with me. If my dog did break free, I doubt he'd want to come back to have that put around his neck again. I don't want to "break" him down, I just want him to respond to me confidently.

Sad isn't it. Rife in the dog world, same as in any other profession. And to show you my bias - LOL - any trainer who used the word "alpha" wouldn't get my business. :) Each to his own, Danny's Darling. Just as well we have choices in this world. I've only been on this site a very short period of time, and I'm really interested in people's experiences and views on dog training - that's the reason I joined, and to express my own views, not to bag anyone else's views simply because I don't agree with them or don't wish to use that training method myself. My needs at this stage, and desired training levels are obviously different to other peoples', and I find the "Alpha" training method suits me and the situation I found myself in with a new 18-month, out-of-control dog. I'm not a professional dog trainer, I'm just an average Jo Blo learner, but I do find it disappointing when people become aggressive and challenged by other trainers' views, rather than trying to encourage people with their dog training where they feel they are succeeding. My motto as a trainer: If it works best for you and your dog - do it. ETA - As a dog trainer, I am also very careful not to criticise other trainers, including high profile trainers as I feel this lets the profession down. I applaud your attitude, Blackdogs, and it's been really good gaining an insight into your training method and how successful it has been for you - albeit only a smidgen of an insight. :)

Sad isn't it. Rife in the dog world, same as in any other profession. And to show you my bias - LOL - any trainer who used the word "alpha" wouldn't get my business. :) Each to his own, Danny's Darling. Just as well we have choices in this world. I've only been on this site a very short period of time, and I'm really interested in people's experiences and views on dog training - that's the reason I joined, and to express my own views, not to bag anyone else's views simply because I don't agree with them or don't wish to use that training method myself. My needs at this stage, and desired training levels are obviously different to other peoples', and I find the "Alpha" training method suits me and the situation I found myself in with a new 18-month, out-of-control dog. I'm not a professional dog trainer, I'm just an average Jo Blo learner, but I do find it disappointing when people become aggressive and challenged by other trainers' views, rather than trying to encourage people with their dog training where they feel they are succeeding.

Hi Santl66 If you've observed, or know about the Alpha training method, you should know that the dogs do end up walking off lead very successfully, and do so without a problem under extremely distracting conditions. As I've said all along, there are many ways to achieve the same result. As long as the training is conducted in a humane and ethical manner, whatever method suits the owner is going to work best, and will create the best trust and bond between owner and dog.

Sounds great, Kavic! I'm considering either agility or tracking once my boy is a bit more advanced and I can trust him off lead. I suspect that's a few months away yet, but something to look forward to.

Thanks. I have found it a really intriguing site and look forward to learning a lot more. Very good advice Tazar, and I won't take things personally. I'm here to learn and pick up what I feel will help me. Cheers!

I like to use the things my dog enjoys as rewards in training, so I can get better and enthusiastic responses and he learns that good things come through me. I use both food and toy rewards. He doesn't get the things he likes for free. This way I can train without the use of compulsion, by controlling his access to reinforcement, and it is win - win. Self control and drive can both be taught through the use of rewards, and we play when there is a job well done. It is a lot of fun and not a chore. Since you are going to feed your dog anyway, why not use dinner time to do some training? Even my lowest drive and most difficult to motivate dog will give me some good work before dinner :laugh: Hi Kavic, It sounds like you do have a lot of fun with your dogs, and you obviously had the time to train them in this way. My problem was that I needed urgent assistance, and your method would definitely have worked (if I'd had the relevant experience and time-frame it would have required to do training) should I have chosen to do so. But I really don't want to make every pleasant interaction with my dog something he has to work for. Apart from that, I still see the dog's need for self control and drive as a form of compulsion, whether he has to work for what he likes,, or whether he's happy to do the things he knows will please you ( ie, he's not going to get the reward, or be fed unless he does what you want him to do). I don't have a problem with your training concept for your purposes. You are still teaching your dogs that they need to choose to perform in a certain way in order to receive their reward. It's no different to the concept behind the training I do. He enjoys being told he's a good dog, and he enjoys seeing that I am pleased with him. Okay, I don't make him "work" for his dinner, but he has his manners at dinner time - he sits and waits until he's given permission to go to his bowl and eat. When he shows good manners by walking behind me in the passage or going down the stairs, or waiting at the open door until he's invited in, he gets praised. There are so many training methods out there, and I'd take a punt that most of them work on most dogs. But Alpha has a reputation for helping dogs that have been labelled "untrainable" and been given the death sentence because of behavioural problems. While my boy was adorable from the day I picked him up at 18 months old, he was absolutely out of control. I paid someone $300 to come and help me, and when she tried to walk him, after a few minutes of him dragging her around, she said it would be impossible to teach him to walk with a flat collar or a slip chain because his neck was already so tough and hardened. Well, in less than 5 months at Alpha, despite all the training being done with a halti, I was able to walk him quite comfortably with a flat collar, using only my warning tone if he started to pull - I'd accidentally left his halti behind when I went to spend 4 weeks on our property in the country, and was left with only a flat collar and an old lead to walk him with. When he started pulling I simply used my warning tone, and immediately praised him when he stopped pulling, and I continued to throw in the praises as he kept up the good behaviour. I'm not always going to be in a position where I can reward him with a treat, but I can always praise him. :)

Hi Megan As I said to Huski, I don't believe that my dog should have to earn the right to be fed, no more than my human family does. Yes, I was a failure at treat-reward training because my dogs expected treats the whole time. I was a failure at a lot of things. I'm human. But I have at last really found a method that produces rewarding results, and it's a training method I'm having success with, for MY purposes. I'm not telling anyone else how to train their animals - it's not about you, or anyone else, it's about how I feel about MY dog and MY training.

Why is it ok to use a ball reward, but not a food reward? What is the difference between using praise and affection and using food? If your dog is rewarded by praise, doesn't it come to expect and look for that like it would food? Like any method using food in training needs to be done correctly to get the most out of it. Hi Husky, I don't use a ball reward. I throw the ball for him because I know he enjoys it. I play with him, walk him, and interact with him in mutually happy ways - it's part of being a responsible dog owner. He doesn't have to earn every enjoyable activity I have with him. He doesn't only get cuddles and praise and affection during training....it's just ALSO part of what happens during training.Why does everything have to be earned? He doesn't have to earn his walks, he gets them because he needs them and enjoys them. I know he enjoys those things, and he has a right to live a happy and enjoyable lifestyle. He doesn't have to work for every pleasant thing in his life. He has a basic right to be fed, simply because he is a living animal, not because he's earned it by doing something I want him to do. My human family don't have to "earn" the right to a decent meal, to games in the park with me, why should my dog? OK, so I'm a failure because the food-reward training led my dogs to constantly expect treats. I'll wear that hat. I'm human, I fail in some things. But I've found something I can do successfully, and a method I can grasp and see the value in. So just get off my back and stop trying to turn this into some sort of competition or challenge!

Hi Nekhbet Thanks for your response to my posting. By the way, I'm not on here to argue, or create waves, or put anyone else's ideas down, just to say that in the situation I had, Alpha training has worked. It's been a Godsend. I am in total agreement with you that the halti is not designed for "harsh" training methods. However, the particular trainer I'm referring to was quite brutal in the manner she pulled the dog's head up with the halti. It's not necessary to be that rough or to use that much strength, and none of the other trainers have ever shown that much force in their demonstrations.. It was almost a show of arm muscle strength with that particular trainer, and it wasn't a huge, strong dog resisting her, that she was demonstrating on. If that had been done on my dog, he would most likely have ended up with a badly bitten tongue because it's often flopping out of his mouth. The sudden, and brutal manner in which she jerked the dog's head up would have snapped my dog's mouth shut so quickly, he would have bitten his tongue. My apologies, I should have been more specific with what I meant by reward-based training (sorry it was past midnight when I made that posting). What I mean is I'm personally not in favour of food-based reward training. I did use it with two of my dogs, and they were constantly looking for treats. But I am very much in favour of praise- and cuddle-based reward training. With praise-based training, my dogs learn to do the right thing because they understand it's the right thing, not because they'll get food. Quite clearly, food-based training goes hand-in-hand with praise. It's a combination of both, so, using your theory, is that not also "forcing" the dog to like you? I don't believe it's "forcing" the dog to like you - I find that suggestion to be quite ludicrous. It's about the dog understanding what is acceptable behaviour in our human world, or more specifically in my case, about acceptable behaviour in my home and my environment. If the dog doesn't like you, nothing you do to it is going to make it like you, but it can respect you as the pack leader. If my dog isn't happy, why does he wag his tail so joyfully when we are working together and when he's around me. And if you prefer to see it in terms of "forcing" the dog to like you, what exactly is wrong with teaching the dog to like you? I fail to see any fault in that, as long as the dog also respects you. Apart from that, my dog liked me well before we commenced training. He liked me when he was completely untrained. I know that because he chose to be with me every minute I was home (and I'm not a single person living on my own, I'm a family person). He followed me everywhere around the house and garden, with his tail wagging and happiness written all over his face.. I never "forced" him to like me. In fact I'd say it was the other way around, and I love him all the more because we've formed a mutually respectful bond. A dog wants to please, and when it knows it's doing that, it is happy. I like to please my dog too - that's why I take him for walks, and that's why I throw the ball for him for hours in the back yard, and that's why I take him to training. Why do you consider praise to be "forcing" the dog to like you? And apart from having a dog that is well trained, isn't the desired outcome of any family-dog training also to encourage the dog to like humans?. Obviously any owner who forms a bond with their dog is going to have a dog that likes them and respect them, and vice versa.....isn't that why most of us have dogs? Humans learn best when they are surrounded by lots and lots of praise and acknowledgement of good behaviour, and they are made aware of unacceptable behaviour. We all know right from wrong because we are taught that. It's no different with our dogs, because they are mostly social creatures who need to interact with their "pack", be that a human family, or dog pack. And in any pack, or family, there's a structure, or hierarchy, if you like. For a pack/family to function properly, that structure and the rules need to be understood. In order to achieve that, each of us has to attempt the best training methods with the most positive feedback. When I praised my children, they were happy, and they loved me. My objective however, was not to "force" them to love me, it was to be a good, responsible parent whether they loved me or not. I view my relationship with my dogs in exactly the same light. It just so happens that in the process of being responsible and training my children and my dogs, they also love/like and respect me. I've never used physical pain, fear, or money rewards, or food rewards to train my children, and I see no need to use physical pain or food rewards to train this dog. All non-pain based training methods have their pros and their cons - each to his or her own. You're welcome to rip what I've said apart, but I make no apologies for employing the Alpha training method, and make no apologies for my admiration of Greg and his passion in the field of dog behaviour and training, and his years of experience and studying dog behaviour and response. And yes, I've also had success with other methods - with dogs that had more placid and submissive temperaments, but with more aggressive or stronger personalities I failed. The dog I'm training, adorable as he is, is a very forceful boy, a very strong and dominant personality, and for the first time in my life I've found a method that works for me with this type of dog. Thanks for reading, and happy dog training, whatever method you choose to adopt.

Well, I'm new here. I joined because I came across this thread which appeared to be initially bagging the Alpha Dog Training method. I've had dogs for most of my adult life. Most of them I've trained quite successfully on my own, and they've turned out to be delightful, polite dogs. I've tried reward-based training, but it doesn't always work. It turned my dogs into "beggers". Then one day when I had a new pup I decided to try the Croydon group, but I didn't like the slip chain method they used. Perhaps it was simply me not getting the grasp of it - I'm prepared to take the blame for that. But my very lively dog just wouldn't stop pulling and I was afraid of eventually doing damage to her neck. Fortunately, when she was about two and a half years' old she settled down and suddenly stopped pulling. But the other dog I "acquired" soon after gradually became dog aggressive. I approached the Croydon group again and was told to bring the aggressive dog along during training sessions and walk her around the other dogs, or tie her to a post near the other dogs until she gave up being aggressive towards them, or until she realised that they were no threat to her. The problem was that she was a very strong dog. I lost courage because I was afraid of being pulled off my feet, and discouraged by all the other members with their well-behaved, placid dogs looking at me as though I had some terrible disease. The trainers were too busy with their groups, so I didn't get any assistance. I gave up and spent the rest of that dog's life walking her where there weren't other dogs, or crossing the road or the park if I saw another dog approaching, or walking where I knew I could have enough distance between my dog and other dogs. It was a nightmare. I had two different professional trainers/dog psycologists at my home to assist with the problem. They said she was simply afraid of other dogs and showed me how to handle the problem. Each of them cost me about $300 per session. I tried for the rest of that dog's life to employ their techniques, to no avail. I'm a fairly intelligent, responsive person, but having no success with that dog made me feel completely incompetent. When she passed away about two years' ago, my other dog grieved terribly. I decided she needed another companion dog, so I contacted various breeders, determined to find a well-bred, well-socialised dog that I would spend a lot of time and effort training from a young age. It took a while, but eventually I was offered a very beautiful young male, 18 months old who had lived with a cat (very important as I have a cat), and doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. He's an absolute delight, BUT was completely untrained. Walking him was a complete disaster as he'd dart in every which direction and would fling himself off in any direction he saw a bird. At times he literally become airborne while on lead. He jumped on everyone and pushed his weight around like I've never experienced a dog do before. He's a medium to large dog, and I ended up having my back wrenched out trying to walk him. Once again I got the professional dog trainer out. This one even trained police dogs and tracking dogs. I was taught all the dog psycology tricks again, like ignore him when he's being pushy, turn your back on him, etc, etc. She tried to walk him and immediately decided he'd never, ever learn to walk with a flat collar or a slip chain, and sold me a halti. The halti worked for a day, then he was back to the pulling and flying into the air again, halti and all! I never got a chance to praise him on walks, because there wasn't a second in between his pulling and darting to slip any praise into. And the ignoring bad behaviour thing didn't stop him jumping on visitors and bowling me over in the passage, or jumping on me from behind. I was desparate! Now thinking that I was completely useless at training dogs (any reassurances from previous successes flown out the window), I started looking for a dog training school that would take my new dog in and train him for me, then get me to learn how to handle him as well. I found the Alpha Dog Training website and rang them, had a long chat with Greg, and am now very happily training with them. My dog is fantastic! He's responding really well to that method of training and I'm gaining confidence again too. We are a real team, my dog and I. He loves his training sessions, and the whole time he's eyes are on me and his tail is wagging. He is so well behaved now, and people who saw him in those first weeks I had him home, are amazed by the transition. He's retained his cheeky personality, and while he's not at all aggressive and never will be, he still has and always will have a dominating, testing nature. But I am the leader of the pack, and I can control his bad behaviour even when he's interacting with others, which I couldn't do before. The Alpha Training method has not suppressed his delightful personality at all, it's merely made him manageable, with boundaries which he accepts. I honestly believe he's more secure, and happier having a leader in his life, rather than having the stress of trying to be leader himself. And he sleeps in my bedroom, and he has cuddles on the couch with me, but all on my terms. I've never been told he mustn't sleep in the bedroom or cuddle on the couch with me, I've only been taught how to let him do so on my terms. He is like a big, cuddly bear, and I love him to death, along with my now very old girl who I'll also treasure for as long as she's with me, and beyond. I've not seen anything cruel or harmful in any of the training I've done with Alpha, certainly nothing as harsh as the slip chain I didn't like at Croydon. Sure, I have seen one trainer being a bit over-zealous with the halti when walking the dog in a circle, and I didn't like that either, but we don't have to follow her example or her degree of "toughness". I've never had to be that harsh, nor will I ever be, and I haven't seen any of the other trainers do that either. My dog and I are only at Level 2 with our training, and already taking him out for walks is such a pleasure, at last! I know I could never have achieved this result so quickly without Alpha. The emphasis in Alpha is lots and lots and lots of praise, so that the dog understands when it's doing the right thing. And positive feedback reinforces positive behaviour patterns. I just know that no other method I've ever used or tried would have worked on this dog, at least not without risk of sustaining a more serious injury to my back or shoulder in the meanwhile. Sure, other training methods work.....with some dogs, probably with most dogs. But sometimes it takes a different approach to make things happen. And I'm more than happy to learn from those who have studied dog behaviour and training methods, with real case studies. It's too bad that some of you have had such a bad experience with Alpha, but you will always find one or two undesirable advocates within any training group. I found that even at Croydon. It's just the way humans are.....some will go to extremes to demonstrate their abilities/capabilities, others can achieve the same result with the same technique using less force. I only wish I had known about Alpha all those years that I struggled with my dog-aggressive dog! I know their training methods would have helped her.