cruzzi

The ANKC has the only game in town. If you want to play, you have to play by their rules. However, rules can be amended. At the next elections vote out those support this proposal & vote in those that don't.

Substitute carriage for set. But I think you probably realised that.

Thanks for the learned advice Christina. Is that a serious reply or sarcasm? Overseas breeders dock a few days after birth. When did you last select your show dog at less than 1 week of age? Those that import make application for a puppy from their selected breeder before the litter is even conceived. Any wonder topics wander from the topic. Yes application may be made but final decision on which particular pup is made well after whelping. And not many breeders would put off docking a litter of pups to allow you to choose one then run the risk of having to get rid of the rest of the litter with tails when other breeders in that country can provide docked. As an example we had a litter of pups here shortly after the docking laws came in. You would be amazed at the number of people that asked "oh they're not docked?" "No we are not allowed to dock them anymore." "Oh but I wanted one that was docked." Breeders don't import purely for show, neither do many actually travel to personally choose their puppy. They import primarily for breeding purposes & rely on the honesty & integrity of the breeders. If showing is a requisite they need only to request an undocked puppy & keep their fingers crossed the same as they do for a docked puppy. IMO your argument is very weak & lacks credibility as a valid argument to overturn the tail docking laws, as does the dog will hurt it's tail claim. I am more concerned about the loss of popularity of some of the previously docked breeds & fear they face virtual extinction because a the ridiculous law foisted upon us by people who don't even like dogs. True breeders don't import for show only but you would find very few dogs imported that are not used in some form of competition to prove thier value. Why would you spend thousands of dollars to bring a dog in and then not use them in competition to assess their value and to allow others to see the potential the new bloodlines could add to the dog. Who said anything about a valid argument for overturning docking laws. You can forget that ever happening. My point is as follows: If I were a breeder in the US or Canada or Asia and I had a litter of ten pups born today with the possibility of one of those ten going to Australia. Now at two or three days of age it would be impossible to determine which pup is a likely prospect to send. So I have a dilemma. 1. Do I not dock the entire litter and therefore run the risk of being stuck with nine pups that have full tails yet demand in my country is for docked dogs. I may not find homes for them for this reason. Remembering that some states in USA and Canada do have limits on number of dogs to be kept.(have had experience in this from when NSW bought in Docking laws but other states had not) 2. Do I dock the entire litter and say to the potential Australian buyer "Bad luck you can still get the dog but you won't be able to show it to prove its value and thus by not being in the ring other breeders will not see the benefit of this new bloodline". 3. Do I leave one pup undocked and hope it turns out worthy of the buyers money they are putting in to importing it. Bearing in mind if they get the dog and it is not a good example for whatever reason my reputation as a breeder is at risk. 4. Choose a pup too leave undocked and then later have the intended purchaser pull out of the deal and I am then left with a dog that may be difficult to find a home for as all other breeders in my country are offering docked dogs which Joe Public thinks is right for the breed. In this situation as a breeder in a country that allowed docking I would probably go down the path of option 2. This as the breeder would be the safest and less stressful way. However that is not the answer the people wanting to imort would want to hear. I too am concerned about the future of previously docked breeds as I happen to breed/train and exhibit such a breed. However I am also in the process of importing another breed to add to our pack and after a few emails with potential breeders in certain countries that we have been in discussion with for over three years, the above are some of the concerns these breeders are having should this ruling come into being. Also it needs to be considered how would the ANKC prevent a dog from being exhibited. If the rules developed out of this motion require all dogs banned by this motion put on a limited register then there goes the possibility of even using the dog to breed with. So again a good opportunity to expand the gene pool is lost. Knowledgable breeders are more interested in what is behind the puppy than the actual puppy per se. You don't pay for the puppy you pay for it's breeding. It is the proven lines behind the breeding that would attract the interest of other breeders if all you are importing for is make a buck. If a dog is imported from a "main" register overseas why would it have to be limited registered here? Cropped dogs aren't. They can't be exhibited at sanctioned shows is all. But their uncropped progeny can. I have you have been negotiating for 3 years surely you would know by now if you want the breeding or not. If you are genuine, pay the bucks, stipulate not to be docked & get on with it instead of making mountains out of molehills.

A stoic stand of Staffords

Thanks for the learned advice Christina. Is that a serious reply or sarcasm? Overseas breeders dock a few days after birth. When did you last select your show dog at less than 1 week of age? Those that import make application for a puppy from their selected breeder before the litter is even conceived. Any wonder topics wander from the topic. Yes application may be made but final decision on which particular pup is made well after whelping. And not many breeders would put off docking a litter of pups to allow you to choose one then run the risk of having to get rid of the rest of the litter with tails when other breeders in that country can provide docked. As an example we had a litter of pups here shortly after the docking laws came in. You would be amazed at the number of people that asked "oh they're not docked?" "No we are not allowed to dock them anymore." "Oh but I wanted one that was docked." Breeders don't import purely for show, neither do many actually travel to personally choose their puppy. They import primarily for breeding purposes & rely on the honesty & integrity of the breeders. If showing is a requisite they need only to request an undocked puppy & keep their fingers crossed the same as they do for a docked puppy. IMO your argument is very weak & lacks credibility as a valid argument to overturn the tail docking laws, as does the dog will hurt it's tail claim. I am more concerned about the loss of popularity of some of the previously docked breeds & fear they face virtual extinction because a the ridiculous law foisted upon us by people who don't even like dogs.

Thanks for the learned advice Christina. Is that a serious reply or sarcasm? Overseas breeders dock a few days after birth. When did you last select your show dog at less than 1 week of age? Those that import make application for a puppy from their selected breeder before the litter is even conceived. Any wonder topics wander from the topic.

It is only pretty recently, within the last few years, that the UKC stopped accepting AKC registered AST's onto their register as APBT's. This was probably more a tic for tat reaction because the AKC refused to recognise APBT as a pure breed rather than a seperation of the breeds. The AKC did open its stud book for selected pedigree APBT's once to increase the gene pool of the AST. So they are definately the same breed. The Qld case actually found the AST & the APBT to be the same dog. It was an act od parliament that declared the AST to be a pure breed & avoided a catastrophic situation.

An accusation has been made. There should consequences. One way or another.

I believe that is how the breed started to divide... There are registered APBT (whether reputable or not) ANKC is not the only registry for dogs. It is the only recognised pure breed dog registry in Australia.

Just being ignorent here, but aren't Amstaff's really Pitbulls? Yes

The reason there are elected officials is so it not necessary to get permission from the entire community to propose a piece of legislation. Unfortunately, like politicians, some elected officials think once they are in they have carte blanche to do what ever they THEY want. It won't matter that it is legal to own a legally docked dog if the ANKC decides no docked dogs can be exhibited at an ANKC sanction show, no docked dog will be allowed to be exhibited. I don't doubt there are exhibitors/breeders using "mischievious'' means to legally dock puppies. However, anyone who makes such an allegation should have to put up or shut up. Such allegations without documented proof should have serious consequences for the accuser.

It seems some are mistakenly assuming the entire pure breed/show dog fraternity are pro tail docking.

It is not an ANKC rule, it is the law. The ANKC has to be seen to be law abiding. I am pro tail docking.