Jellyblush

Okay :) Hey, at least I had the video going. She stretched the bars then reached her paw through and swatted at the catch until it opened!

The story said the same thing happened to pigs after Babe came out. People are idiots.

Thanks guys but I don't think so. Based on past performance, now she knows it's possible, she won't be satisfied till she's out every single time.

It's on right now :) It's not a show I would normally have any faith in, but any story about how people should choose their pets more carefully is alright by me. They have a shelter manager and RSPCA rep talking about the volumes of Kelpies dumped after Red Dog came out, due to being totally unsuited to many suburban owners.

It looks like I got excited too soon I was only gone for 30 minutes - not even because I had anything to do, was just practising the crate stays I'm devastated

Just for you T :D

Yeah so does Roo :laugh: :laugh:

:happydance2: I will celebrate with a gratuitous Roo-pic! Don't you just hate it when you fall asleep in the middle of a good article?!

I know, I'm a disgrace Just be grateful I'm not tying her outside a shop to go on a date :laugh: :laugh:

Haha a strange and distant memory Sheridan but apparently something 35 year old single women that don't want to be married to their dog forever do?!

Hi everyone, little update for you. I had a call from a lovely girl from Gumtree who wanted to mind Roo five days. But, I am just haunted by the experience of the Uni girls letting her out and can't bring myself to trust again no matter how nice they sound. Since Roo went okay in the crate, I have a new plan - 2 days crated, 2 days daycare and (fingers crossed) 1 day working at home. Just for the next few weeks then I'll look at another crate day. Hope my boss goes for it. I couldn't afford 5 days per week daycare but 2 is okay, and at least I will know she is safe and with professionals. She's booked into Ka-Pooch! tomorrow. Anyone heard of them? In Fairfield, Melbourne AND the best part of it is....after a full day of exercise and interaction at daycare, if I wanted to crate her for a couple of hours in the evening to ...oh, I don't know, go on a date for the first time in years.... I probably could!

I get this all the time. I can't count the number of close friends and family who have said to me that caring for my dog is ruining my life. No, caring for my dog IS a key part of my life, I love her, she's my best friend and who wouldn't spend time caring for their best friend and trying to make sure they were happy? To be honest, at times I've thought a little bit less of people who have said things like this to me, because loyalty and kindness are qualities I value - anyone that wouldn't show those qualities to a animal sharing their home I don't really care to know. My dog isn't spoilt, she doesn't have coats or accessories (unless you count her thundershirt lol), but I do devote time and energy to ensuring her happiness and what exactly is so wrong with that?! um.... I think you might have hit a nerve!

Thanks Simply Grand, that's encouraging :) The gold star chart made me laugh - remember teaching my little brother not to wet the bed using one of those!

I cannot WAIT to not have to take my dog to the shop and tie her up. She's always been fine, so far, but I can never relax and often forget things or buy the wrong things because I'm rushed and stressy. I'd love a return to a more inclusive society in general, when people were more accepting of all kinds of things, dogs, children, etc, and the community looked after each other. Now, I think that exists in hard to find pockets only. I've bowled right up to a heap of shops, pubs, cafes etc, and asked if I can take my dog in, because leaving her wasn't safe inside my home or outside their shop. Yes, most people say no ,but I have a handful of great pubs, clothing shops and cafes that welcome both of us :) Smart, because I spend an awful lot of time and money in them! Musings really, but I guess my point is, there are still times and places where dogs are safe and welcome, and it's up to us as owners to find out where and what they are and use them rather than placing our dogs in unsafe situations.

Can't wait! Just like her self-harming = my worrying = her anxiety = her self-harming and so on into a downward spiral, the opposite positive compounding effect should also hopefully be true.

Compared to her frenzy when out the back, it's not too bad at all. If I've understood Nekh correctly, this is an indication that her distress is part habit rather than full blown terror. Here's a couple of pics of her poor little teeth after just a few weeks of chewing on the back door. So, she was definitely getting more worked up into the frenzy out there. That's why I'm so happy she's safer now.

Hope so Pebbles and I think so Sheridan! What do you think? Bars of crate after crating for two hours Friday night: Bars of crate after crating for eight hours today: Better, right?

:) I don't either, in fact, I hate it, which is why I had not tried crating before - I just never considered it a humane solution. But honestly, in the comparison between her in crate and her tearing herself to pieces in the backyard, there is no doubt as to which is more humane. My hope is that the crate is not a long term solution, just like the meds. Over time, I'd like to get to the point where she is 100% calm in the crate, then wean off meds while still in the crate, then transition the crate to the backyard, eventually crate with door open in backyard...just like another kennel. Of course I am making this all up and have run none of it past Nekh or anyone else at this point, it's just my dream for the future. I know it will be a long road to that point if at all. For now, I'm just thrilled that Roo isn't hurting herself, or at risk elsewhere. P.s. I am SO hearing you on the bl00dy beans! Also, after smugly saying in the other thread that my house doesn't smell of dog....crating Roo all day has put an end to that I think!

I like that idea Pebbles. I think it is an interesting debate and one worth having, but I've made my decision as to the role of meds in working with Roo (i.e. as a tool to stabilise while I work using Nekh's ideas re training) and no amount of discussion here will change it. Especially as both the meds and Nekh's approaches seem to be working! Crated all day today. 8 hours. Fine when I got home, less bent bars on crate than last time(i.e. only one which was one I'd forgotten to smear anti-roo-chew on) although her beanbag has a hole chewed in it and beans coming out which is a choking hazard.

Thanks guys, you'e right, I have sent Nekh a message, she's been spot on about everything so far.

Rosetta, don't be silly - I think it's interesting to discuss SA more broadly. Meanwhile, I have a question for you all .I have no care for Roo tomorrow. We've built up to 3 hours in crate now. Should I crate her tomorrow, risking that she might get distressed in there and learn to hate it, or put her in the backyard, knowing that she will self harm there as it's such a habit? Any thoughts? I didn't know that about migrants. What was supposed to be wrong with their 'nerves' in the first place? Stress of their experience?

Haha - so my calves are telling me right now, they are ACHING from the constant stair climbs! Thanks for clarifying, I understand what you are saying now, and agree. For me, medication has a place as something that can stabilise an inflamed situation long enough to see whether the behavioural strategies employed are having any impact, with careful monitoring of dose and looking out for any side effects, including by video when I'm not home. When my dog is at her most frenzied, there is not much hope of any learning being done. That said though, I do also wonder about the impact of the meds on the learning via training programs - and specifically the role of state dependant learning in this scenario. I think it is interesting that you guys think vets are quick to prescribe. Mine didn't mention them until I did - he gave me recommendations for a behaviourist and a couple of trainers, plus a DAP, but that's it until I asked for meds following advice from another forum. A lot is said about 'trends' in diagnosis in relation to human medicine, and I think it's broadly accepted that these exist, so no surprise it happens to dogs as well I suppose.

From a place of genuine curiosity - how do we really KNOW that they are anxious inside? They may not be? I understand that we shouldn't assume they're calm because they look it, but equally we can't really assume that they're not. People say that when they take anti anxiety medication or anti depressants, they DO feel better inside, which lets them operate with some level of proficiency in life until such time as they have learned coping mechanisms or are back on track. How do we know it isn't true of dogs?

:laugh: Poor Trigger That's great to hear. I ordered another on online this week, the one I got from Petstock last week was expensive ($220), and they very kindly said I could take it back this weekend if it wasn't damaged....my plan had been to replace it with the identical but 1/3 cost crate I bought online and take the Petstock one back - THAT won't be happening now, cheers Roo, so I accidentally have two! What would be the best way to use two crates? Is there ever a need to have two if you have one dog, if so I'll keep it if not I'll sell it. I thought maybe put one in the backyard so she eventually transfers the learning done in the lounge crate to the yard, but I am probably just making things up now! Omg. You dag :D :laugh: Yep. Roo knows without a doubt when I have ACTUALLY left as opposed to pretending, even when I unlock the front door and go out of it and just stand there, she knows the difference between that and leaving. Don't know how, but I know she does as it's evident from her reaction on the video. It's hard to know if there's any effect from the meds, since I'm doing other stuff as well, difficult to separate everything. But, the last couple of times I've left Roo, she has definitely been less frenzied than previously. Might be meds, might be me being calmer, might be crate, exercise, diet change, combination of all the above. The panic is still there but it is more level 6 distress than level 10 which is great, as my major concern has always been the self harm. My plan is to keep working until we hopefully get down to a point where I can slowly wean off the meds. I don't want her on them. Obviously if they are the contributing factor she'll stay on as long as she needs them but I'm hoping they are not, if they are just playing a supporting role I should be able to ditch them eventually. Yesterday I went to meet a woman I found on the pet minding matching site. I am finding I am struggling with people believing that Roo's behaviours are as I say they are. I said in the ad I put up that can't be alone, not even for a single second. We met, walked our dogs (she has a 9 y/o male foxie, they were great together), then she said "so I can do Monday and Friday but both days I got out for an hour, she'll be fine in the backyard, right". Er...wrong, or she'd be in my backyard! She was lovely though so I just said "why don't we try a walk round the block" thought I'd let Roo demonstrate for herself since people don't believe me! We are only about 10 metres away when Roo sails over the 2 metre fence. I would have done better to spend that 2 hours on a Saturday afternoon at Nek's class!! Which next week I will if we're welcome Nek. More crate stays today - funny thing, noticed my calf muscles have been REALLY aching the last few days, couldn't work out why, until I realised that it's going up and down the stairs a million times a day doing the crate work with Roo! :D Here's your Roo-pic, this is us at the creek just after she'd torn her claw out in one of her nutter frenzies

I was worried about my dog today IN the car with me in it and the air con on. Good on you.