ness

Bummer she better hurry up and get home - so go on what about a summary from you in the meantime .

So where is poodlefan she said something about a seminar summary . I hope you didn't harass Sue to much.

ROFL leopuppy - yep you must know everybody

So any report back on the seminar - we are waiting. The write up Ann has done for some of the lists sounds fantastic.

PS. And did anybody manage to kidnap Switch for me

Oh yes sometimes more takes on a situation doesn't make it any easier - especially when there all different . I am sure whatever you do will be right .

Vickie as you once said to me on a list its not a bad thing to over think stuff . I am the same and sometimes you just need to voice those thoughts and get another take on it.

I don't know much (ok nothing) about herding but she isn't looking to bad Vickie - way to go Shine

Cosmolo, sure obedience does have a role in keeping the dog safe but I am sure we all know of dogs who have great "obedience" in the ring yet are complete ratbags outside of eg dogs who heel really nicely but pull like sled dogs the minute they are out or have rock solid formal recalls but under normal circumstances have a limited recall (and sure I am not going lie that my dog was any different until I trained better).

I do believe that some dogs can enjoy the sport after receiving a correction BUT I own one that does not so can only basis my judgement on what I am working with currently. I also recognise that poor reward based training can be just as ineffective and all forms of training (be they whatever you can dream up) are only as effective as the trainer implementing them. I guess it comes down to the fact that while poorly timed reward can make a skill harder to teach an inappropriately placed correction can cause more harm than good. Furthermore that harm may or may not be fixable depending again on the level of harm caused and the skill and goals of the trainer.

For example it took me a number of years to get pushy heelwork back (reliably) after a "well meaning" instructor decided to correct her from forging using an almightly correction on her check chain all because she was half a body length ahead. Having got to where we are now I feel there were a number of other methods that may have been more suited to correcting the problem.

Cosmolo wrote: But what if the same thing happened when you asked the dog to drop on recall if the dog was about to run across the road toward you? Do we expect our dogs to be ring smart so that they know when its important and when it isn't?

Lots of dogs are pattern trained - as I said before how many dogs have really realible ring recalls but may not have a totally reliable recall outside of. They area also pretty situational. I mean if you wanted to drop your dog when they were about to run across the road would you have heeled forward a few paces, told your dog to wait, walked away a given distance, called the dog, told the dog to drop, then called the dog again. I doubt it. Chances were the dog would have been doing something on its own you gave a command and the dog dropped.

Maybe the DOR wasn't the best example - but certainly more things like the retrieves, scenting, stand for exam, sendaways, directed jumping, broad jump that sort of stuff.

Also things like precision heelwork - back on the discussion that was going yesterday on a thread regarding UK heelwork. I certainly don't want my dog walking nose glued to my leg for an entire 6/7/8km walk. I want her to be allowed to sniff and explore. Sure I don't want her dragging me everywhere but certainly don't want her to "heel".

Just my thoughts - nothing more. Yep I am pro-positives and not going to shy away from that fact. Sure Ness isn't perfect (I am not perfect either) but what dog (or human) is and especially what first dog.

On the strictly ring work obedience side I watch some of my training colleages going to ring practice week after week (all of whom think you can't train a trial dog without correction) some are still struggling for years to get there dogs to a point where they are ready to trial in UD yet I have trained Ness using completely positives with no corrections - she started her UD training in November (mostly just scent discrim) and the rest in early January and has very solid foundations and has done for about a month or two. And trust me she hasn't been an easy dog to train.

ROFL Leopuppy I am playing with your mind .

For me the question really comes down to what we are training - are we talking everyday basic manners or specific ring precision behaviours.

Everyday basic manners:

I would exhaust all positive methods first (as long as we aren't talking a life or death issue which may change things) and then take a long hard look at what other methods are around BUT I would certainly not recommend them as a matter of course.

Ring behaviours:

Open mind so long as they are all POSITIVE methods - after all this a game we play with our dogs and not something they have to do. I think in those circumstances all training should be fun. So what if your dog is in the ring and doesn't drop on a drop on recall or retrieve the dumbbell or anticipates the retrieve. There life isn't depending on it so what. I have seen to many brilliant obedience dogs excel in ring using totally positives to be persuaded that corrections are required to get the top level work.

Bummer cause you could have stayed here (if you wanted to just come without dogs) .

I have lots of secrets Leopuppy (I got a secret specifically related to Nationals sure you don't want to come ).

Yep leopuppy I am hinting at something .

I came home and did some heelwork with Ness in the yard. Just paying contact and position and doing about turns on the spot.

so when do we get see some of leo's work :p. Maybe you can burn a DVD of some and include it when you post the other DVDs to me as I would love to see him in action .

Hmm leopuppy I was rewatching Ness's heelwork video from the other day and she surprises me its not as bad as I think. She is prancing and holding good position (lets forget about the turns because they are a work in progress). But her straight line stuff is very nice.

UK heeling patterns aren't shorter - one of the videos shows there dogs heeling for at least 4 minutes. I don't think ours would be that long.

Whats yah point Leopuppy. Hmm there are some Goldies and stuff but I don't have the links here and come to think of it that was from the AKC regionals so would have been US .

ETA I found another non-BC crufts round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjNp5P_nFno

Here you go some links to some Crufts 2007 stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHDp9CoeUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0E0ikvCWzA

Hmm I don't know. Jo Hill's video she had smaller dogs heeling just as close and just as well using a foot target.

Yeah it does doesn't it. I am going to work harder on a consistent position and if she happens to be really close great if she is a bit wider but holds a reliable position then that is good to.

ETA. Was watching some crufts stuff this morning and OMG there fronts are to die for but again probably penalised under our standards.

I love the UK style heelwork - such a shame its penalized here.

Yes, I had mine recorded so I could play it on the ipod .

Hey Shoey,

That is why you need to be on auto pilot with your turns .

ETA. Leopuppy do you want my response to this question or have you had enough of me preaching about what the those brilliant gurus of WA taught me ;) .

In one round at a trial I used about 6 different commands for heel in the one pattern . As for turning the wrong way don't any of you do dogless heel practice - maybe something to put on your training plan.

Ness is 6 and yet to be in her prime - although starting to go that way. I think dogs are in there prime when you and they gel together as a team. I am sure its not totally just related to the dog but we have really just started to gel.

Love that video leopuppy - its so true.