ness

I am a bit confused. Is all that you want that both dogs will obey each of the handlers in a very informal sense as being good family pets or are you intending to trial ? If its for the benefit of the first then I agree with poodlefan in that OH watch at training and practice at home. That way you can take them both to the park and set it up so that OH can work Miss X but without the downtime associated with class training. I find BCs because they pick up on everything so quickly do final class pretty boring and get bored quickly. If you work at a park by yourself then you can also work at how long you expect X to work with your OH. Maybe your OH can even have a cue where X is allowed to go find you - but I would only recommend this once OH has X working for a reward. At the begining the amount of things X will do before looking for you and the pup might be not very much but you can build up to it. Have you tried playing the recall game between the two of you - that involves leaving one and going to the other when they call. From my observation some dogs work best when the person they are trying to hunt for is actually visible rather than hiding whereas others work best when they are completely hidden. Again is a matter of finding what works. Not sure if any of that helps at all.

Pax yes but that same Lab will no doubt do gloves in UD like the rest of her dogs and we also heard she had never even tried that before the seminar. Maybe its got more to do with the fact that for dogs that love retrieving gloves can be seen as inherrently rewarding whereas there is no way that food refusal can be seen as a self rewarding exercise. And by lots of 200 I hear she has at least 18 .

Hmm PAX if it was Gina she has had a change of heart over it because she told me not to do food refusal either for UD. Then again maybe they are all just conspiring against me to give me a bit of a training challenge with gloves!!!!!

I know tell me about it

Hmm I might click and then tell her get it but thats just helps with the excitment factor more than anything and because when I play food circuits I am not clicking anything but just tossing and having her chase food.

LOL it builds excitment to the point where hmm I can send her around behind me as I do when we play food circuits and she accelarates like a rocket. Worked great last night at agility when they had just the dogwalk set up over in the beginners area and I wanted to try and replicate a degree of excitiment. She was across that dogwalk VERY fast with the speed you might get if the dog was doing another obstacle first.

Yep Mrs D explained that - it sets the dog up for the next repetition. Nope the click doesn't reward the behaviour. Also throwing food encourages the dogs to drive harder and makes it more exciting for the dog especially since the act of chasing something tossed can add to the reward value. I do a mixture of both. Sometimes I reward in position and then toss ANOTHER treat out to set the dog up. Other times I click and toss a treat. I used it in heelwork to get my dog up so she was forging again. Click and toss the reward forward. Works well on recall fronts to if you toss a treat through your legs (only works for the smaller dogs mind you) but then the dogs drive forward and will come in closer on there fronts since the dogs grativate towards the reinforcement.

It teaches the dog how to find heel position from varying angles.

Just asking for those who use a mixture of training methods does that mixture change if you are explicitly trying to teach a dog a particular exercise for the ring as opposed to a life behaviour. For example a nice tight finish or a perfect dumbbell retrieve or some other behaviour WHICH wouldn't be needed in every day life and for which reliablity isn't an issue (other than of course to score well and qualify for titles which to dogs are meaningless).

Not in WA it isn't. ETA you actually have seen dogs do gloves wow!!! hmm over here most would do food and apparently the same goes up in Queensland.

In the ring you may only use the command STAY and it may be no other word. Its one of the only commands which is dictated. ETA you will also if you watch carefully see a lot of stressed dogs performing the food refusal exercise in the UD ring (another reason why I would NEVER teach a dog it). As for gloves basically there are 3 gloves set up in a line each glove 6 meters apart about 12 meters from the dog and you are lined up with your back turned to glove number 2. When the judge tells you which glove your to retrieve you about turn, give direction to the dog via a hand signal and then send the dog to retrieve the glove allocated (either 1,2 or 3). Dog goes out and retrieves the glove and returns and sits in front. The one advantage over the directed retrieve is that you only have to do 1 in the ring. Food and Speak you have to do 3 times in three different positions - sit, drop and stand.

Sorry Shoey yep they do gloves or speak instead of food in UD. Over West almost all the dogs without fail do gloves. Even my non retrieving girl is loving gloves so whats the point in doing a exercise which has a negative feeling attacted (especially if your dog loves food) when you can do a positive one.

No problems deltron - if Borders dont't have the Idiots guide to positive training in stock they can get it in. Its not overly expensive think from memory around the $25 mark. Although its not so much on puppy care but on training. I downloaded the Dunbar book today as the link I had previously was text only. Great read again - lots of very good stuff on how to get the puppy off to the best possible start.

Are you meaning meal time manners - as in the dog will sit in front of the bowl or food refusal as in the UD exercise for obedience - the former is easy and if its the later for trialling purposes all the positively trained dogs do gloves or speak as food at the end of UD is seen as being a negative exercise for the dogs.

Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training (The Complete Idiot's Guide) (Paperback) by Pamela Dennison which can be found at any of the major bookstores around the place Angus and Robertson, Dymocks, Borders I have all seen stock it at one stage or another. and yep would agree on the Ian Dunbar recommendation - was just about to post that. You can download an eletronic copy of before you get your puppy from a few websites around the place. I'll chase up a link if you can't find it. ETA Here is the link to download before you get your puppy. http://www.jamesandkenneth.com/new_puppy.html

Hmm LL sounds to me your interests are retrieving - I think my recommedation would suit you well .

Actually from what I have heard of Mary Ray she wouldn't exactly be described as a purist clicker trainer either. Not disrepecting her in anyway.

Well you could enter her in PT but if she doesn't pass at the HT she isn't able to compete. Otherwise you enter her in HT and either ask if they can put you up or if they can't you can run her in HT since the trial date closed before she obtained her title.

Not going to argue the point but I just want to say that is because for correction trained dogs the absence of the correction can in fact become rewarding to the dog. Also the feeling of relief that the dog hasn't experienced a correction can also be rewarding. Besides which there are a few dogs out there for whom social interaction is the most rewarding or highly rewarding BUT there are millions of others for whom it means very little. I believe it would be possible to train such a dog without the use of food or toy rewards. I would question whether the standard of work would be as high as a dog trained using all three - praise, food and toy however.

ROFL DD my status for knowing the best positive trainers in Australia proceeds me. I have PMd LL with a suggestion but not entirely sure what LL is after. I know of a lot who are positive and bloody brilliant trainers in my opinion and may use a clicker (as a tool alongside other positive techniques) but I wouldn't necessarily call them the best clicker person if you get my drift.

It could also be that they are still on edge from yesterday's incident at the dog resort. It can take up to 72 hours for the adrenalin to subside and they can be more reactive during this time so maybe they are just taking a bit of it out on each other. Let them have time to settle and wise to keep them apart when not supervised and just keep everything low key and then reintroduce them slowly after a few days when they have had a chance to recover. I will keep rough housing at a minimum and build back up to it slowly as long as everything is ok but give them both a chance to recover a bit. ETA. It may also be worth getting a professional opinion from a behaviourist but at least if you keep things low key and supervised you won't create any further problems between the two and give them a chance to repeat any unacceptable behaviour.

ROFL leopuppy - yes I will walk out of the ring if she isn't performing. Have I needed to since I established that as a rule NOPE .

Who sas - me - we got our CDX last year (in 3 trials with some pretty average work) so I am just getting ring exposure for me while training the UD exercises.

Tangwyn dogs capabilities to score 200 are only as good as the trainer (or in fact the willingness of the judge in some respects). I am sure there are a substantial number of WA dogs who have never experienced a correction for trial work in there life yet would score 190+ on a regular basis in the ring. Not sure what you are infering to leopuppy but I post this merely to say it can be done. ETA Leopuppy has done very well in the ring with Leo who is her first trialling dog.

One of the Qld clubs sells ready made agility equipment. Ok found the link: http://users.bigpond.net.au/lest.agy/Equipment.htm